:
We're back in session. I'm not getting feedback now.
As indicated, this is meeting number 112 of HUMA. Before we begin, and to avoid the audio feedback that we just went through, I would like to remind members of a couple of items.
When you are not using your earpiece, please keep it on the allotted spot. This is to protect the interpreters.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Some are appearing virtually and some are in the room.
You have the option to speak in the official language of your choice. If you are appearing virtually, use the globe icon at the bottom of your screen. Click on it, and you can choose the official language of your choice. In the room, interpretation is available from the microphone. Again, please keep the earpiece away from the mic while the meeting is progressing.
Please direct all comments to me as chair. If an issue comes up, or if there is an issue with translation, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it is being clarified.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on February 26, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (C) for 2023-24 and the main estimates for 2024-25.
I would like to welcome our witnesses for the first hour. We have Minister Boissonnault, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages.
Welcome, Minister.
From the department officials, we have Paul Thompson, deputy minister, as well as the senior associate deputy minister.
[Translation]
Welcome, Ms. Namiesniowski.
[English]
We also have Brian Leonard, general policy chief, financial officer for corporate planning affairs.
Minister, you now have up to five minutes for opening comments, following which we will begin our first round of questioning.
:
Thank you very much, Chair.
Colleagues, I want to thank you for inviting me to HUMA today. As always, I want to thank all of you as committee members for your hard work on behalf of Canadians.
[Translation]
I would first like to point out that we are gathered on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
[English]
Today's meeting is a welcome opportunity for me to highlight the progress being made on developing and growing Canada's future workforce and our plans for overcoming and capitalizing on the challenges we face, while at the same reinstating the long-held belief that for decades guided our country—the promise of Canada; that unwavering truth that young generations would be able to get a good-paying, middle-class job, afford a home, and do as well as, if not better than, their parents' generation if they just put in the work.
[Translation]
We all know the challenges we face, including the grey tsunami—the exodus of older workers who are leaving the workforce faster than we can replace them. On the other hand, we also need a generation of skilled green-collar workers in a world of automation and digitization.
[English]
Underpinning both these challenges is the trades boom—the Herculean effort of equipping businesses with workers needed today while ensuring an adequate and consistent supply of skilled tradeswomen and tradesmen to contribute to the economy and the opportunities of tomorrow.
[Translation]
Overall, we are facing the rapid loss of skilled workers, coupled with a shortage of workers with the skills that contribute to the increased productivity needed for a strong economy.
[English]
The challenges are great, but there is good news, including the fact that our fundamentals are in great shape. International investors, for one, are quite taken with us, and businesses are noticing. It's why we have the third-highest foreign direct investment in the world right now, and the highest in the world when you divide it by our population, ahead of all of our G7 allies. It's why Stellantis, Volkswagen, Air Products, Dow and Honda bet on us and our workforce to be partners in the economy of tomorrow.
[Translation]
That's why we've already begun equipping our workforce with the know-how needed to progress in an increasingly digital and changing global economy.
[English]
I have limited time, so I am going to highlight a few items of special interest that speak directly to those efforts. Of course, I'd like to shine a light on some budget 2024 measures and the role they will play in making the promise of Canada a reality again.
[Translation]
We're striving to integrate more workers into the job market. We already support students, through scholarships and interest-free loans. We intend to increase this support with $1.1 billion in new funding. Programs such as the student work placement program and Canada summer jobs help students and employers find the right path.
In the skilled trades, we invest nearly $1 billion a year in apprenticeship assistance, through grants, loans, tax credits, employment insurance benefits during in-school training, project funding and support for the red seal program.
[English]
We're also looking ahead, because it's not just about where the puck is so much as where it's going to be. The labour force of the future, in the context of achieving our net-zero goals, will depend on a workforce equipped with the right skills.
[Translation]
This is exactly why we introduced Bill , to ensure that Canada will meet its carbon neutrality goals without leaving workers behind.
That's also why we recently launched the sustainable jobs training fund, to support a series of training projects that will help more than 15,000 workers.
[English]
We're also launching a new union training and innovation program sustainable jobs stream under the Canadian apprenticeship strategy in the coming months that will benefit over 20,000 apprentices and journeypersons in the skilled trades.
In closing, colleagues, let me say this: Overcoming these challenges requires everyone.
[Translation]
As minister, I saw the incredible work done by unions, by companies, by polytechnics, by schools and by institutions to train the workforce of the 21st century.
[English]
Our support for these efforts will help to deliver on the middle-class jobs that our great workers deserve, the future they have dreamed of and the promise of Canada they have worked tirelessly to achieve.
We won't give in. We will not stop until that promise is made reality again.
Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members.
[Translation]
I look forward to your questions about Canada's workforce.
Good afternoon to my colleagues.
Minister, thank you so much for coming before HUMA. It's appreciated.
I want to talk about the work we are doing to strengthen the EI system, but we're hearing opposite of course a lot of innuendo from the Conservatives about you. That's unfortunate, given the important mandate of the committee and the important issues you raised in your opening statement.
With respect, my friends across don't really care to talk about the workforce of tomorrow or skills training or, as I said a second ago, the important work we're doing on EI. I do want to talk to you about those matters, but I do want to give you the floor, Minister. I think it's only fair that you have an opportunity to once and for all clear the air about the innuendo, and I won't interrupt you.
Minister, the floor is yours. Thank you.
:
Let me bring it back by saying three things: I've never been a lobbyist. I have never wanted to be a lobbyist, and suggestions in the story and around the table that I am are false. Finally, I've never used my position as a minister to help a lobbyist, and any suggestion like that is wrong.
Let's talk about where we are with the labour force, Mr. Long, because you asked about where we are with unemployment. We are at 6.1% as of the last data, which is up from 5.8% in the last period. However, in the five years since 2017 the average was 6.3%, so we are still at historical lows for our unemployment level. I did hear that people were interested in how we calculate our unemployment rate vis-à-vis how the United States does. We calculate our unemployment rate by scoping in 15- to 64-year-olds. We also take into account the people who are going to be employed in the next two weeks, whereas the United States calculates it for 16- to 64-year-olds and doesn't include that two-week calculation period. In fact, if you looked at our unemployment rate using the U.S. model, we would probably be a full point lower, so, there's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison that happens when you cross the border.
What I can say, though, is that the economical fundamentals, as I said in my opening remarks, are strong. When we bring Stellantis, Dow, Volkswagen, Northvolt and all the others here, there will be thousands and thousands of well-paid jobs for Canadians, unionized jobs at prevailing wages or better, and that's very important for our economies and our regions.
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Absolutely. We went from 20% to 30% for people in the low-wage stream to have access of up to 30% temporary foreign workers on their payroll when we had a million vacancies. Now we're down to about 600,000 vacancies, so that's the tightening of the market that we're talking about. Colleagues in this room would agree that we want to make sure that Canadians take the jobs offered by Canadian firms. What I want to make sure is that the temporary foreign worker program is a last resort. I want youth, indigenous, persons with disabilities, newcomers and now including asylum-seekers to be considered before somebody decides to apply for a labour market impact assessment.
To respond to the tightening labour market, we reduced, in the low-wage stream, the percentage that people can have in their companies from 30% down to 20%...with the exception of construction and health care because those are two priority sectors where there's a high degree of need in those sectors. The agricultural stream is not part of this, and neither is the seasonal agricultural worker program.
Everything that I've just said does not apply to the agriculture stream. In working in close partnership with Minister , we made sure that we scoped in asylum seekers.
What does that mean, colleagues? It means that if you have a newcomer centre or a centre in your area that is responsible for asylum seekers, they can be connected to employers and get those jobs using their skills profile that we now have from IRCC. We have it at ESDC, and those temporary residents should be able to get those jobs before those companies can apply for an LMIA.
My time is running out, Mr. Chair.
On February 15, after your meeting with workers and unemployed groups, you asked the various organizations to provide you with a list of the main changes they would like to see in anticipation of comprehensive reform.
They wrote to you and asked for three changes. First, they're asking you to reinstate the temporary measures for 2021-22—it's already in the EI schedule; you could already implement it. Second, they're asking you to end the discrimination women face in claims when maternity, parental and regular benefits are combined. Third, they ask you to adapt the employment insurance program to take into account the particular situation of rural regions that depend on seasonal employment.
This letter was addressed to you on February 15. Have you replied to it?
:
Minister, you are facing an unprecedented mobilization from many groups.
The authors of the letter you received included all of Quebec's major central labour bodies, the Canadian Labour Congress and the main groups defending the rights of the unemployed.
Employment insurance reform is a 2015 commitment by your government, a broken commitment, Mr. Minister. Acknowledge it.
You're offering temporary measures in the absence of a comprehensive reform that should be implemented. The economic situation you speak of and low unemployment rates should, on the contrary, prompt you to reform employment insurance and not wait for the next crisis.
In the budget, your government even suggests that, over the next two years, unemployment rates may change. So it's time for reform.
Why not be proactive and announce a necessary reform to the media?
I was just wondering if there was a response from the minister.
Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thank you to the team, as well, who are here.
Minister, when this committee was first struck, our first study was around the care economy. As a woman at this table, I was very much concerned that women were undervalued, under-represented and underpaid in the care economy. In your speaking notes, you mentioned the grey tsunami and growing the workforce. You can't go out into the community these days without meeting someone who is caring for a parent, a family member or an elderly person in their life.
I want to ask you specifically about the temporary foreign worker program, which is over-represented in the care economy. Many workers take up work in home—these are caregivers in home—including offering hospice care.
I met a woman recently. She was doing palliative care in a family home. When her client passes away, there is no grieving time. There is no time for them to get new employment. They are immediately in a precarious position and at risk of losing all of their status in Canada.
Is this something that you've heard about? Can you address the precarity of the work they do?
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When it comes to the care economy, I'm going to turn to Paul for some detail on numbers and who's in there.
If we talk about having women in the workforce, which was your opening piece, $10-per-day child care is helping immensely.
On the TFW and the specific case of people being vulnerable in the care sector, we make sure that they.... There are labour market impact assessments. If people are being brought in to do that work, they have to follow rigorous programs.
There was also work we did as a government to make sure that people in the care economy—caring for children, elderly persons or persons with disabilities—would have a pathway to citizenship.
On the particular cases that you are aware of with people in precarious employment, if they are employed by a hospice company, that is definitely something I want to look into.
Deputy Minister, do you have anything on that?
Welcome, Minister.
I'll get us back to committee business. Last week, I had the opportunity to meet with Michael Braithwaite from Blue Door. They work out of the York, Durham and Peel region, otherwise known as “Tony Van Bynen territory”. They're well known in the region for providing transitional housing, as well as emergency shelter support for those people who need it. What most people don't know about Blue Door is that they offer the construct program, which is a skills training program that's launched about 500 people into the skilled trades.
I know you're very well aware, Minister, that we have a very aggressive housing policy. Our national housing strategy promotes new housing in both the non-profit sector and the market sector.
I'm wondering if you can share with the committee how we could seek to support organizations like Blue Door, which is offering these services in co-operation with LiUNA, local colleges and the private sector.
Can you share with the committee what ESDC's doing with our housing plan, and how we're supporting the building of skilled trades numbers across the country?
:
Absolutely, Mr. Collins. I referenced it in my opening remarks.
We invest about a billion dollars a year in the apprenticeship space—grants, loans and EI benefits—for apprentices. One of the big sectors is the construction sector.
I had this conversation with my counterparts at the provincial level early in this mandate. We have to esteem the trades earlier, but at the same time, we have 98% of companies in this country that are small and medium-size enterprises, like in “Tony Van Bynen country” and in your backyard. It's really hard for them to figure out how to bring an apprentice on when it's a guy and his cousin who have three people and a truck, and they're building houses or they're roofing. How do you put an apprentice on that?
There's money in the budget—I think it's $90 million—to do something to get apprentices on the job sites with small and medium-sized enterprises. I'm very excited about that. We pushed hard and we got it done. When I met with BILD Calgary, that was the number one ask they had for me. How do we get apprentices on the ground, literally on site, with small and medium-sized enterprises? That's number one.
Number two is that I need help from everybody around this table to esteem the trades earlier in life. The next time you're at a meeting, or it's the summertime and you're having beers with your friends, or you're around the family table and you have the grumpy aunt or uncle who says, “The trades are a bad idea. They're a second-class career,” correct it. They're first-class, amazing jobs. The trades are the way of the future.
Friends, we have 700,000 skilled tradespeople retiring in the next five years. The time is now.
I will say to the officials, great job for doing an award-winning campaign to scope more young people in, and there's $10 million in the budget to get more young people into the trades.
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It's amazing. I'm the outlier in my family. I'm a kid from skilled trades. I got an IBEW scholarship to go to the University of Alberta in 1988. It was $500. That paid for half a semester of tuition and books. I was the academic kid. My brother is actually in the skilled trades. So is my nephew. My niece is looking at it. I think we have to have a societal attitude shift about this.
When I came in, I said, “Let's look at the German model.” The German model streams people based on their aptitude. You go the academic route, or you go the trades route. Some, like Senator Bellemare and others, have said, “Look, let's have tripartite advice to the ministry on how we can get labour, employment and government all working together.” I want to see that higher level of coordination.
When it comes to making sure that the trades are esteemed, I don't agree with everything the Ford government does, but I think they've cottoned on to something with the announcement that Minister Lecce made earlier this week. If those students still achieve their academic excellence—they still have to make the marks—the ability to stream them in and have them get skills in the trades while they're in high school.... I think that's an innovative model. We have to see how it works and then see it take place across the country.
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The HUMA committee is resumed.
I may have been a bit unclear as we suspended for the vote, but we do, Madame Zarrillo, return to your motion that was on the floor.
Committee members, you've heard the motion of Madame Zarrillo, which was moved before we suspended. The motion was in order. There was a 48-hour notice.
We will have discussion on the motion.
Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos, on the motion.
:
Is there any further discussion on the motion of Madame Zarrillo?
Do I see unanimity on adopting the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Madame Zarrillo, the motion has been adopted. It will have to follow the committee's order of procedure.
With that, then, thank you.
We will now move to the second hour.
I'll advise committee members, unless somebody objects, that it is my expectation to go about 5:45 because of the voting, if that's agreeable.
For the second hour, we have Minister Beech, the Minister of Citizens' Services; Cliff Groen, associate deputy minister and chief operating officer for Service Canada; Brian Leonard, director general and deputy chief financial officer, corporate financial planning; and John Ostrander, business lead, benefits delivery modernization.
Mr. Minister, you have up to five minutes, please.
It's great to see you. We spent many years together on the fisheries and oceans committee.
[Translation]
Good afternoon, everyone. It is with great pleasure that I am here with you this afternoon.
[English]
I want to start by acknowledging that we're meeting today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
It's great to be back at HUMA. I'm going to try to shorten my remarks, given the time constraints. I can start by not introducing my colleagues, since you did that so well, Mr. Chair.
I'm here to speak on the supplementary estimates (C) and on the main estimates. For the supplementary estimates (C) with regard to Service Canada and the ministry of citizens' services, we're talking about four items for $165.8 million, the bulk of which—75%—is for dental. The other big number is loading old age security onto the benefits delivery modernization, BDM, program, which accounts for 22.7% of the estimates, or $37.7 million.
With regard to the main estimates, BDM was the largest commitment. Out of the $194.2 billion that ESDC has budgeted, I think it's notable for all members of the committee that $176.5 billion—91%—will flow directly to Canadians through benefits that will actually be delivered, or are currently being delivered, by the benefits delivery modernization program, namely old age security at $81 billion, the Canada pension plan at $65 billion and employment insurance at $25 billion.
Citizens' services is still a relatively new ministry, coming into place in July of last year. As minister, I'm responsible for Service Canada. I'm also responsible for the Canadian digital service. I've organized my priorities in three broad categories that I like to say are dental, digital and customer service.
Given that it's been a tremendous week for dental, I thought I'd start by providing some highlights there.
We've delivered this benefit in record time—just a little over two years—and 1.9 million Canadians are currently enrolled. Eight thousand oral health professionals are currently signed up, which is quite significant because last week that was 6,500. That's quite an increase. Most importantly, 15,000 Canadians have been able to actually go see an oral health professional, which is a significant benefit for the seniors who are currently benefiting from this program.
Dental itself is actually a code word for benefits because although dental is the largest benefit to ever be delivered at this scale—nine million Canadians are going to benefit from this program—it's also responsible for the benefits delivery modernization program, which will deliver the aforementioned benefits: OAS, EI and CPP.
With regard to digital, this is about making more of Canada's services available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from the convenience of your computer or your cell phone, no matter where you are in the country. Every time somebody can easily access a government service, that's just one more person who isn't standing in front of you in line. I actually consider it part of my unofficial mandate to try to eliminate lines and eliminate the need for people to wait on hold.
With regard to customer service, it's part of the mandate to make it easier for Canadians to access government services, but it's also making the government more efficient and making it easier to serve in the first place. We're doing that through process improvements, artificial intelligence, automation and machine learning.
Some of the solutions are relatively simple—things like the customer user experience. We spent a significant amount of time thinking about the products that we actually manage. Part of the reason dental has been able to onboard so quickly is because we wanted to make sure that it was as simple as it possibly could be. We took a lot of time going through the very detailed flow charts and physical experiences and then through user testing with actual Canadians in the demographics that are going to be utilizing these services to make sure that we eliminated all the errors in advance, which saves us a lot of work on the back end.
I'm happy to take any questions you have.
With that, I'll hand it over to you, Mr. Chair.
:
Let me give you a very relevant example. We're rolling out dental care under newer but relatively traditional methods. We had an IVR system and now we have a web form. In all, that's going relatively smoothly and it's about as simple as we can make it, given the technology that we currently have.
I asked the Canadian digital service to mock up what this would look like with a digital credentials system. Of course, there was $25.1 million in budget 2024 for a single sign-on.
If you go through the current system, you really are reintroducing yourself to the Government of Canada all over again. What's your name, your address, your birthday, your spousal situation, etc.? A digital credential would actually allow you to sign in and then it would show all the information that the government currently has. It would ask if we had your permission to share that information with health, in this case, in order to be able to fill out the application. You'd only have to answer the additional questions.
That takes an eight-minute process with lots of room for errors and disruptions to something that could take 30 seconds. Then you actually would get your benefits card immediately.
You could imagine, in the future, actually filling it out on your phone in the dental office and going straight in and getting your teeth fixed.
:
That's a great question.
The three major systems that are affected by this—CPP, EI and OAS—are of varying ages, from over 60 years old to just a little over 25 years old. These are legacy systems. Some of the systems that are running these programs are very hard to get developers for. COBOL is a language that was created in the fifties. EI has 160 bespoke applications that all have to be maintained in a cumbersome way.
Over time, it really starts to restrict the kind of policy that we can implement and it makes it a lot more complicated. Also, a lot of the technology and the technical debt associated with these projects are just no longer serviceable. There are mainframes that would be literally irreplaceable if something were to go wrong.
One aspect is that we are replacing the system and we'll have the assurance that $1.5 trillion in benefits that will be paid over the next decade will get to the people who need it.
From a transformational perspective, the ability to have user-centred design, have people able to go into an app to apply for EI, to check on the status of their services and to have another channel that provides service instantly—24 hours a day, seven days a week—is all empowered by this new service.
Mr. Minister, thank you for being with us again.
The 2024 budget announces investments to modernize the old age security pension and the employment insurance program. To my knowledge, this isn't the first time. Money has already been invested for this purpose, but I don't know what it was used for. So, once again, we're being told that investments are being made to modernize a system that dates back to another era and somehow prevents us from implementing the measures needed to improve the employment insurance program.
How much longer can we wait to modernize the system and ensure that it meets needs?
Access to employment insurance is problematic and the delays are significant. I spoke about this this morning in the House of Commons. I consulted some documents I have in my office and found that employment insurance is second in terms of the problems it presents.
How do we ensure accountability and promote excellence in services to Canadians? How do we ensure that Canadians receive timely service?
:
Thank you for your question.
I apologize for my French. I've been studying it since January 2016. I can now speak it a little, but I will answer in English. I apologize for that.
[English]
This is a good question. EI obviously is the most complex of all of the systems that are the BDM program. We have started to lay a good track with the Cúram system throughout OAS, which has set us up well to deal with the significant complexity that will have to be coded around EI.
With regard to timing, we will start in 2025 with a target to complete by 2028. With regard to EI modernization, which is being led by my colleague, who I believe was here just before me, that is being done simultaneously. It is my expectation that we will be able to walk and chew gum at the same time and conduct a significant modernization. Whatever that modernization may look like, we will be prepared to implement it on the new system.
:
All right. Let's hope that this time you don't create any false hopes; indeed, there have been a lot of dashed hopes on this subject. I can tell you that the situation at our offices is pretty pathetic, because people come to us as a last resort. When a person has waited three or four months to receive benefits, they've had time to find a job. Very often, then, their application is no longer considered urgent. As a result, there are huge delays before any follow-up.
I'd like to talk to you about another file that I imagine is part of your responsibilities and concerns federal public service employees. This is the Phoenix payroll system. I think this is a firm commitment. Although the system was not ordered by your government, you've been in power for eight years and it's chaos. We read unbelievable things about this system, which has a negative impact on the people, the employees, who provide services on a daily basis and who do not receive fair compensation from their employer, the federal government. According to the Public Service Alliance of Canada, there are still 400,000 problem cases. We know that agreements have had to be made to try to correct arrears.
Seriously, Minister, when will we, once and for all, restore a reliable and fair payroll system for your workers?
:
I'll comment on both items.
First of all, with regard to the EI wait times, I'm happy to state that some of the investments, which were supported by a majority of members—I'm not sure who voted yes or no—have been paying off. Of course, when somebody needs EI, they need to get it immediately. The wait times for processing have improved by six days, year over year, between this year and last year, and wait times at the call centre are now 5.8 minutes on average, whereas two years ago, they were over 30 minutes.
We've made significant progress in lowering those wait times, although better is always possible—somebody said that once—so we'll keep working on that.
With regard to the Phoenix pay system, this is, of course, being spearheaded by my colleague . I've had opportunities to see the status of that, both at the service committee and at the Treasury Board.
Generally, I agree that it is absolutely necessary for public servants to have their pay done on time. I started seeing the impact of that as early as my first few days as the parliamentary secretary for the Coast Guard, where the rules are really unique, and it was causing a lot of hardship for individuals.
I have confidence that we're going to be able to figure this out and pull through it, but I'd have to defer to my colleague on detailed analysis on timelines and the next steps.
Thank you so much for being here again, Minister.
I'm seized with this disability benefit and how it's going to get to Canadians.
I want to share with you a letter I received from a family physician in Toronto around the disability tax credit. The letter says, “The disability tax credit is an underused, difficult-to-access program that will increase barriers to access for those most in need of a Canada disability benefit. Very few people living at low income with disabilities currently access the DTC because it is a non-refundable credit. It also requires a complex form to be filled by a physician, and many physicians will demand payment for this work. The largest group of people who receive the DTC are higher-income seniors, definitely not the demographic targeted by the CDB.”
As an aside here, I'll say that, of the 900,000 DTC claimants, only 75,000 of them record income under $25,000. There is no way to do a one-to-one comparison between a person with a disability and the claimant.
The physician goes on to say, “The disability tax credit also rests on a definition of disability that is highly medicalized, has an exceedingly high threshold for approval, and is out of touch with current understanding of disability. Living with a disability results in exclusion from workplace and society due to structural social barriers, not due to individual medical diagnoses, or issues with the function of body parts. Programs like ODSP focus on deficits and ability to function in society rather than specific medical diagnosis. The DTC does the opposite. I have never heard a disability rights-oriented advocate or health professional support the use of the DTC as a gateway to disability supports. To allow the DTC to be used as the gateway to the CDB will build a massive structural impediment to this program, and it will not allow to ever achieve its goal of raising people living with a disability out of poverty.”
I'll ask you again, Minister, how is the government going to deliver the Canada disability benefit?
:
First of all, I greatly enjoyed our conversation the last time that I was here, and I understand your passion—and mine—for lifting Canadians out of poverty.
As we're both B.C. MPs, there was some good work and a study done in British Columbia about the fact that, although a lot of our measures had lifted children and seniors out of poverty, more work was to be done in the disability community.
I would also thank you for forwarding me recommendation 5 of the disability advisory council, which speaks to exactly what you're speaking to. I just became aware as I was sitting down that you have a motion at this committee, and I think it was adopted, so I look forward to reading the report on that.
I took the opportunity not to just skim recommendation 5 but to read the entirety of the fourth report of the disability advisory committee, which was quite compelling in some of the issues that were raised in the letter that you just read. I heard that for the first time.
With regard to the payment for work, I think there was an item in this year's budget—I want to say $224 million, maybe $234 million, I'm not sure, $200-and-something million—to help fund that cost for individuals so that they can get access.
I believe my colleague presented earlier that we are expecting for this benefit, which is the largest single line item of the 2024 budget, $6.1 billion to roll out. Dental care took two years, and we're going to roll out this benefit in just over one year. The first payment is scheduled for July 2025.
As Minister of Citizens' Services, you said in your opening remarks that your focus is on dental, digital and customer service.
We know that we are paying 50% more for bureaucracy than in 2015 and that they only want to show up 60% of the time. This article came out just the other day: “Federal public servants to return to the office 3 days a week this fall”.
We also know that in the 2015 Liberal election platform promised to save billions by reducing the use of external consultants, but in reality, spending on outsourcing has increased nearly 60% from the $10.4 billion spent when the Liberals took office. This is really an option of never seeing so much spent but so little achieved.
I want to share this story, because this is from Ron, who's a constituent in my riding. This email was sent just a month ago, and you had told everybody here that passports have gotten completely corrected. I just want to say for the record that you promised that digital online renewals would be in place by the fall of 2024, which still has not happened.
This is from Ron:
Words cannot express the frustration my wife has just experienced with the Canadian passport office. We both sent our passports in for renewal at the same time, with new photos taken and signed by a professional photographer. The government has processed our payment. Of course, we are without passports until they send us the updated version. They do not expire until October 2024.
My wife received a phone message (she is a transit bus driver...and cannot take calls while working) saying that her photograph was not acceptable because her grey hair was not discernible enough from the background. We both have almost white hair as we are seniors. They asked us to call back, and left the common phone contact number. Her first attempt said she was 75th in line, then slowly worked her way down to 30 [and] then the line went dead. Trying again, she waited for 3 hours on the phone before it was finally answered. She gave the reference number, but the representative said she would have to check with another representative, and said she would need to [be] put...on hold for possibly 20 minutes. We sat on hold with the music playing for over 20 minutes with no response. We called in with another phone and the automated message said they were closed, yet the hold music continued on her phone. We finally had to give up. My wife was in tears.
Minister, this is not what Canadians expect, nor is it what they pay for, so for you to come in today to tell us that you are delivering customer service and meeting and exceeding standards when you still haven't even delivered on the digital passport renewal is upsetting to folks at home.
I want to turn my time over to Ms. Gray, who also has a question for you.
Thank you.
Minister, you talked about customer service and what your role is. I'd like to outline some service standards as reported by Service Canada for the last fiscal year, 2022-23.
For access to an employment insurance call centre agent, “ESDC met [the] standard 40% of the time”. For access to a Canada pension plan and old age security call centre agent, “ESDC met [the] standard 6% of the time”.
These are failing grades, especially the 6%. No wonder people aren't getting through.
What directives have you given on this blatant lack of basic government service that taxpayers pay for and expect, Minister?
:
It says something about the digitalization of government. It also says something about our customer-centric user experience. When we spoke to Canadians, individuals over the age of 70 actually said that they preferred to utilize the telephone. We implemented an IVR system for those over the age of 70. That was how we signed up the first 1.8 million individuals.
On May 1 we transferred everyone, the whole program in its entirety, to a web form as part of our digital first initiative. I want to be very clear, however, that digital first does not mean digital only. For those individuals who need a helping hand, they will still be able to use the traditional method of visiting a Service Canada office in person or calling over the telephone.
It means that for the tens of thousands of people, and eventually millions, who will use this service as this continues to roll out over the many months, there will be one last person standing in front of you at a Service Canada office, therefore allowing you to get better service no matter which channel you decide to use.
:
Thank you very much for that. I think it's a very important step, one that we obviously haven't seen before in Canada. I appreciate you sharing that information. I hope the success we've seen with sign-ups in particular continues.
Perhaps you can share this with us, Minister. In the first appearance you had at this committee, I don't expect you to remember the question, but I did ask you about what we see in other democracies. I know that Estonia is frequently held up as an example of the digital turn in terms of government and what that could do for citizens. I know that you can't really make a straight comparison. In the most obvious case, you have a huge difference in population, which, among other major differences, doesn't really allow for a meaningful comparison. At the same time, if a country like Estonia can move toward a digital turn in a very positive way on the whole, I wonder what that means for countries like Canada.
In other words, are you looking at other models abroad when it comes to moving toward digital? If so, where are you looking? Are there particular examples of programs or other initiatives that you're seeking to model?
:
This is a great question. Obviously, it is more efficient for us as a nation not to have to reinvent the wheel all the time. Canada as a government used to be the third lead in digital services. We've dropped to 32nd. Now we need to climb back up the ladder. That means there are 31 other jurisdictions that we can learn lessons from.
You mentioned Estonia. By coincidence, I happened to go there to study their digital service ecosystem some five or six years ago. Their prime minister told me that there are only two things that you can't do online in Estonia: You can't buy a house and you can't get married. Everything else you can kind of do online. We've seen Ukraine even during this time, with war at its doorstep, being able to implement new digital technologies.
In terms of more comparable western nations, there's the United States. If anybody really wants to understand BDM and what's really going on in that process, I'd recommend the book Recoding America. The first couple of chapters detail the benefit upgrade for the State of California. It faces a lot of the same challenges that we do here.
Australia has had a pretty good record. It implemented different digital services at the provincial level and is now looking to expand at the federal level. The U.K., as an example, already has the digital renewal of passports, which is something we hope to deliver by this fall.
We are looking all around the world and looking for partners in trying to do this in the most efficient and effective way that we can. Of course we'll look at places where it's already happened, because that gives us some benchmarks that we can go by.
:
I can't say I have a direct, service-centric, deliverable blockchain technology that is going to roll out in the coming months.
As a general distributed ledger, blockchain is very good for issues of disclosure. You could imagine in the future utilizing blockchain technology for ownership registries or for basically any sort of database where you would want a real-time, public record that you could track, do research on or make available to academics. There are a variety of uses where that could be incredibly valuable.
I believe there are governments that are dabbling in different areas. I know there are private companies that are looking at carbon credits and the like.
There are lots of opportunities there. I think the immediate opportunity is from a Service Canada perspective. It tends more towards the customer user experience with AI, automation, machine learning and process orientation, etc.
Thank you for allowing me to nerd out at the HUMA committee. I really do think that in Canada we have some of the smartest people in the world. We're also a leader in blockchain, so there's no reason why we shouldn't be utilizing those technologies in the business of our government.
:
Are we good? I will continue.
What had happened—very quickly, and then I want to move to the second part of your question—was that we had this unprecedented demand because people hadn't travelled for so long. Travel restrictions decreased, but at the same time, health restrictions had not, so we had passport offices that were at 40% or 50% capacity and still exercising social distancing, etc. It was a once-in-a-hundred-years global pandemic event.
That being said, you're right. It was absolutely foreseeable that we were going to see the increases in volumes. We have been adjusting accordingly. We implemented line mitigation measures and triaging. I'm working diligently to get Wi-Fi at all of our Service Canada offices, so staff can work the line and pull out those individuals who are there for something quick versus something that is longer. We're looking at extending hours. We're looking at providing more digital appointments.
Of course, every person, if they're ahead of the curve, can rest assured that they can mail in their application and have their passport back within 20 business days.
In the fall, when we roll out the renewals, it is my hope that we will be able to talk to most Canadians and tell them they don't have to stand in line at all. That's the future vision, but we have mitigation measures in the interim.
:
Thank you, Madame Zarrillo.
Thank you, Minister Beech, for appearing today. With that, we can dismiss you. Thank you, Minister and officials.
I will ask the committee for a little direction. Earlier I discussed with the committee that, if we are efficient, we may be able to begin the housing study a little earlier. With that, I need some decision from the committee. On May 22, during the first hour, we can begin the housing study. The committee did approve the invitation for three on the 22nd—
The Clerk: It's for the 27th.
The Chair: —I'm sorry—on Thursday, the 27th, the , the RBC assistant chief economist, the Governor of the Bank of Canada and the federal housing advocate. If the committee agrees, we can spend the first hour beginning housing, and with the grouping, invite the RBC assistant chief economist and the Governor of the Bank of Canada. If that is agreeable, then I will need to get direction from the committee on a timeline for witnesses as well as briefings for the committee.
Do I see a desire from the committee to begin housing? In the second hour, we'll do version one of the intergenerational study on the 27th. It's the first meeting when we come back after the constituency week. It would give the analysts some time to prepare, but it's one option for getting the housing study under way a bit earlier.
Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos.
Before we leave, Mr. Fragiskatos, I don't get the sense that we want to begin.
If the committee could give me direction on the witness....
We'll start the first hour, and we'll extend an invitation to the RBC's assistant chief economist and the Governor of the Bank of Canada. I will advise how they respond.
Is there agreement? Good.
Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: The meeting is adjourned.