LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, February 24, 2003

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Hon. Denis Coderre (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

¹

1540

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ)

¹

1545

Mr. Denis Coderre

¹

1550

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

Mr. Denis Coderre

¹

1555

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1600

The Chair

Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC)

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1605

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

º

1610

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1615

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1620

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1625

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1630

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

Ms. Rosaline Frith (Co-chair, Director General, Integration, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee)

Mr. Denis Coderre

Ms. Rosaline Frith

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

º

1635

Mr. Denis Coderre

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Mr. Denis Coderre

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Mr. Denis Coderre

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Mr. Denis Coderre

º

1640

The Chair

Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

Mr. Denis Coderre

The Chair

º

1645

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 012

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Monday, February 24, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1535)  

[Translation]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Today, we are resuming our study of immigration and official language minority communities. We will be hearing from Minister Coderre, who will be sharing with us the changes that have occurred since he took on the portfolio some time ago, as well as the department's intentions with respect to this issue that is of great concern to us.

    Wednesday of this week, we will be hearing from the Citizenship and Immigration Canada—Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee, whose co-chair, I believe, is Ms. Frith. I can also confirm that on March 17, the day we come back after the break, we will have two hours with Minister Stéphane Dion for a presentation as well as for questions and answers on the official languages action plan that will, as we know, be made public by the Prime Minister on March 12.

    So without any further ado, Mr. Coderre, we welcome you back to the committee. This is the second time you have appeared before this committee. You are familiar with the routine: you make a presentation, and then we move on to the question and answer period, which lasts until time runs out.

    Please proceed.

    Hon. Denis Coderre (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration): We will ensure there is time for as many questions as possible.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you have pointed out, this is the second time that I have appeared before this committee and I am very happy to do so. Since my last appearance, there have been many important developments relating to official languages and immigration.

    First, as you know, Canada's new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, or IRPA, came into force on June 28 of last year. The IRPA clearly stated in its objectives that Canada has a bilingual culture and that there is a need to support minority official language communities in the country.

    The legislation also contains specific measures to promote the development of minority official language communities. For example, the number of points awarded for a second official language in Canada's immigrant selection grid has been increased. This will help increase the number of immigrants who might be interested in settling in one of Canada's official minority language communities.

[English]

    As well, the budget confirmed the allocation of $114 million over the next two years to launch a five-year action plan on official languages. My colleague Minister Dion will be providing details later on the distribution of this allocation.

[Translation]

    In addition, this past October, Canada's federal, provincial and territorial ministers held a formal meeting for the first time in over 100 years to discuss immigration matters. We committed ourselves around the table to a new partnership—to work on immigration issues of mutual concern, and to develop measures to address critical skill shortages that are being felt across the country.

    Finding ways to increase the benefits of immigration for all regions of the country was a central focus of this meeting.

[English]

    Work is currently under way to find innovative approaches to attract immigrants to different communities in Canada.

    Another development has been the release of the report of official languages and immigration by the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. This study focuses on communities where an official language is spoken in a minority context and where fewer immigrants and refugees have settled as compared with the national average. The study confirms that, today, francophone minority communities are not as immigrant-rich as other minority communities.

[Translation]

    I want to commend the Commissioner of Official Languages for this report. We are giving its recommendations full consideration.

    I also want to ensure the committee that Citizenship and Immigration Canada is committed to finding ways to increase the vitality of Canada's minority official language communities. For example, last year it established a joint steering committee in partnership with Francophone minority communities. The purpose of this steering committee is to develop mechanisms to attract and retain Francophone immigrants and refugees in Francophone-minority communities.

    Allow me to acknowledge the work of my colleague from Saint-Boniface, who took the initiative, with the francophone community as a whole and its business community, to set up a possible pilot project to help attract francophones to Manitoba. It is working very well. An action plan is being developed. Consultations are underway with communities and providers of immigration settlement services across the country.

    The Interdepartmental Partnership with Official Languages Communities has been an excellent tool to help fund initiatives under the action plan. Over the last year, CIC and Canadian Heritage have provided funding to the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne to assess the capacity of the Francophone communities to integrate newcomers in Moncton, Ottawa, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver. This study is now complete and Phase II starts soon. It will assess more rural communities of several provinces.

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[English]

    I should add, Mr. Chairman, that my department, in partnership with Canadian Heritage and others, is currently contributing over $675,000 to Interdepartmental Partnerships with Official Language Communities to sponsor projects on immigrant-related issues.

    Finally, I would like to mention the provincial nominee agreements that have been signed with several provinces and territories.

[Translation]

    These agreements give provinces and territories the ability to nominate some of their own immigrants, in order to meet their priorities and needs. But in this regard, we are also committed to ensuring that the agreements include a clause on official languages.

    So when we talk about a Provincial Nominee Program, we are talking about the whole issue of skilled workers, and in doing so, we want to ensure that a percentage goes to the Francophone community. We do not want to determine a number; what we want to do is establish this partnership so that the Francophone community works with provincial governments to ensure that Francophones can effectively have a say in matters.

    We have already signed agreements, namely with Nova Scotia, which was the first one, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and obviously, we are making sure that each time we renew these agreements they include a similar clause.

    Mr. Chairman, our country faces serious workforce challenges in the years ahead. By 2009, our workforce will depend entirely on immigration. To ensure the stability of our communities, to ensure the vitality of our minority communities wherever they are, these communities must have a say and they must be enabled to use immigration as a tool for future development.

    The question of language is extremely important for us. Respect for linguistic duality must be taken into consideration, that is the reason why we stipulate very clearly that the linguistic aspect must be included the policies that we are putting forward. With respect, for example, to evaluation criteria for skilled workers who will come to the country, there will be points awarded for official languages.

    So it is important that I as the minister, and the government make sure that we are active in this regard, and that is our intention. Active support from the communities that benefit most from the presence of newcomers is vital for successful integration of those newcomers.

[English]

    Minority official language communities have a tenacity and a determination that have helped them survive. For them to grow, they need to channel these qualities to reach out and welcome immigrants who can increase their numbers. I am personally and passionately committed to the official language objectives, and my department will provide leadership in that direction.

[Translation]

    Insofar as my department can help minority official language communities through immigration, it will do so.

    Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

[English]

    Monsieur Reid, do you wish to go now?

    Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Why don't you go to the next person.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Dalphond-Guiral, if you are ready, we can start with you. You have seven minutes.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Ready or not, here I go.

    Mr. Minister, I apologize for arriving late, but what can I say, dividing one's time between the riding and Parliament Hill is difficult.

    I don't think you have any trouble understanding my interest in sitting on this committee today, and I thank the chair for the welcome he has extended to me for the second consecutive time.

    Immigration, in all parts of Canada, is necessary; it is essential. The problem with immigration is the concentration of immigrants in large, heavily populated centres. That is true in Montreal, and in the rest of Canada. The Commissioner's idea of wanting to devote more energy to Francophone communities outside Quebec that are working relentlessly, that are battling to the best of their ability—but it is an up-hill battle for them—and to encourage Francophone immigrants to settle outside Quebec to help develop Francophone minorities there, is, from the outset, and I acknowledge that, a generous idea. But as you know, Mr. Minister, generosity is not necessarily realistic.

    We are all aware of the actual assimilation rate of Francophones outside Quebec. I do not have my document with me, but we looked at the statistics last week. It appears that the use of English within these families is becoming more and more predominant.

    In your opinion, is it reasonable to think that a Francophone immigrant who comes to North America will want to become a very positive force for our community development?

    I can imagine being a Francophone immigrant. I have lots of imagination, so I can do that. I imagine that if I come to North America and I choose to settle in the rest of Canada, I am going to integrate into anglophone North America. That's what I think. I want my children to become Canadians in that context.

    Do you plan to allocate substantial sums of money to integrate these newcomers into smaller communities, where the settlement structure is non-existent? There is a base. Whether there be 10, 100 or 1,000 Francophone immigrants, there are some basic services in place that are very costly. That is the issue.

    I have not yet had the time to examine the budget, because I was travelling down East with a committee in the storm. Have additional amounts been earmarked in the budget for immigration to meet these needs?

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    Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you, Ms. Dalphond-Guiral.

    First of all, unlike a certain author, I do not think that Francophones outside Quebec are dead bodies that are still warm. I think that they are a driving force in our society, that they have made contributions and that they will continue to do so if we help them as required. Having travelled across the country on several occasions carrying out various duties, I must say that the one million Francophones outside Quebec deserve our respect and we must help them. If they need a Francophone doctor in Saint Boniface or Vanier, I think we must work towards ensuring that citizens receive the services to which they are entitled.

    So for starters, I do not make a distinction between Quebec and the rest of Canada; you know me. I think the first step is to say... A perfect example of an anomaly is that there are five times as many Francophone immigrants to the U.S. than there are to Canada. That makes no sense.

    Here we have a country where there are two official languages, an extremely active community. So it is not a matter of taking something away from one to the detriment of... We must find a way of celebrating in an inclusive way the partnership between government, the communities, the Francophone or Anglophone business community, so that everyone works together to ensure that we have the tools we need to develop these communities. It is a necessary reality in that sense.

    As you say, the concentration of immigrants is a problem. Sixty percent arrive in Toronto, 15% in Vancouver, and 13% in Montreal. There are even people from Montreal who move to Toronto, or Vancouver or elsewhere. That is why we have a new system, new legislation. We want to identify the necessary tools so that everyone has a say. So in that sense, it is not only realistic, but necessary and vital.

    Within the next five years, Canada will be facing a shortfall of one million skilled workers, and that is a lot. This is not only a language matter, it is a question of preserving our quality of life.

    So in my opinion, we must be proactive. We are not doing enough; we must do more. In some ways, the budget is a tribute to the regionalization of immigration. We have already earmarked $41 million for immigration. There is a plan. I mentioned the $114 million for official languages, a portion of which will be earmarked for immigration. But you know as well as I do that “resources” do not necessarily mean “money”. We must be able to work hand in hand and come up with a way, the modus operandi that will enable us to ensure that everyone involved can take on his or her responsibilities. So it's not a question of Ottawa, as big brother, dictating what needs to be done. As we did in Saint Boniface, in Moncton and in Ottawa, it's really a matter of putting together the momentum that will enable us to take charge and work in cooperation with all decision makers. It is not strictly the Canadian government, but the governments of the provinces, the cities and municipalities.

    In that sense, I think the fact that we have signed an initial agreement with Nova Scotia... No one expected it, but in Nova Scotia, we have already included official languages clauses. In my opinion, we are starting to use immigration as a tool for development, as a tool for stability as well for our minority language communities, and this tool will help ensure that we do not have second-class citizens in our society.

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    The Chair: Thank you. We will come back to that.

    Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you for coming, Minister, ladies and gentlemen.

    Is there a way of using the network of Canadian embassies abroad to promote immigration to Francophone communities more vigorously than we currently are?

    There is another area that I am very interested in. I used to sit on the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, and one of the issues we heard about was recognition of immigrants' degrees. While immigrants complained that Canada would not recognize their degrees, some professional associations told us that they did not believe these people had the necessary qualifications. So it seems to me that there is a huge gap in the thinking of the two groups.

    What is the status of discussions with the provincial governments on the issue of recognizing immigrants' degrees?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: We could spend hours on that question alone. I think that collectively, we have had a wake-up call. The most recent census shows that by 2026, given our birthrate, population growth will depend solely on immigration. Economically speaking, given that by 2009, the workforce will depend solely on immigration, we have collectively realized the importance of the issue of skilled workers, where there must be room for everyone.

    We are not trying to reinvent the wheel, but the last time there was a formal meeting on immigration was 107 years ago. At that time, the Honourable Clifford Sifton, from Winnipeg, who was the Minister of the Interior and Superintendent of Indian Affairs, put in place a strategy to increase the population of western Canada. There was a proactive system referred to as good farmers, which explains why some communities are very present. There was our friend Louis Riel, but apart from the Métis, there was also a very dynamic community of people who became farmers.

    So we can see that there are major shortcomings in terms of economics and language as well, because of assimilation, but also because of a lack of renewal, and in that sense, we wanted to make sure we could be proactive.

    So the federal-provincial conference was held, but there are two problems. The first involves promotion. As you know, we have a Canada-Quebec agreement that works very well, and that includes tools to promote development and the transfer of funds for integration, but it works less well in other areas. Now, all provinces have made a unanimous commitment to promote their part of the country. By including official languages clauses in the Provincial Nominee Program, we will have to be more aggressive. So we are in fact encouraging the adoption of a much more aggressive approach.

    Secondly, as regards recognition, there are two problems. There is the problem of people who come here, who want to contribute, and who are disappointed when they arrive here, and there is the problem of the people who are already here, who are working in a restaurant or driving a cab, but who are biologists or doctors, etc.

    So this federal-provincial conference was necessary, if not vital, to ensure—because this is an area of provincial jurisdiction—that we would be able to build bridges with the professional corporations. And that is the validation process. So we got involved with the provinces, and the provinces are committed to a process so that people who come here will know what to expect.

    People come here for two reasons; they want a better future for their family and their children, but they want to work in their field. Sixty percent of our immigrants are skilled workers, 27% come here under the family reunification program, and refugees account for 13%. We have international responsibilities and duties that must be fulfilled.

    Included in that are Francophones. If there is a need for a Francophone nurse in Saskatchewan to work in a Francophone community, we must also come up with a modus operandi. We must establish the contract to ensure that these people come, but also that they stay. So if we have a validation process—and I will conclude here—and a process to recognize for eight degrees, we will be able to target immigration based on citizens' needs. Consequently, under the partnership with the provinces, the provinces will be able to give us a list of their requirements, and our approach to immigration will enable us to be much more pragmatic.

    In Manitoba, for example, we held a study session to develop an action plan for the business and cultural communities with the province and the municipalities. If we are told what is required and if we are asked to facilitate matters, we will be able to do so if, in return, we gain recognition for foreign degrees. Manitoba has already held a round table, a kind of estates general, and with the professional corporations, the province has given itself the means to reach an agreement. My department will subsequently work with the national organizations to try to balance everything out. That is the vision we want to implement for the next five years.

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    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You touched on a point that I want to go back to regarding the recognition of diplomas. Of course, there are those people we will try to encourage to come here, but what do you plan to do about the people who are already here, who are experiencing this problem, and who cannot find a job in their field?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: I have always used the example of a new friend from Haiti who is a doctor and who chose, a long time ago, to settle in Sainte-Anne-des-Monts. I believe he arrived in 1975 with the second wave of Haitian immigrants. It took him 15 years to obtain recognition as a doctor. There is a difference between right away and... We have to be careful, because there are issues of patients' safety so it's important to respect our own Canadian criteria. But there is a difference between refusing recognition and requiring someone to wait 15 years. So if we can come up with a way, a process... The validation process does not only involve looking for doctors abroad, it also involves coming up with a process for issuing licences.

    For engineers—this is the best example—we have established equivalencies with universities in seven countries including, I believe, Israel and South Africa. So those people take the same courses, but what's more, there is a validation process that enables people who are in the country as well as people who are abroad to have an opportunity to resolve their situation.

    So it is the same process in both cases. There will not be two different systems. There are many people who are here, and that explains why the statistics show a drop in income. Of course if these people work in their fields, it would have an impact on income. And if it has an impact on income, it becomes an investment that enables us to offer our social programs and ensure stability.

º  (1600)  

    The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Thibeault.

[English]

    Mr. Herron.

    Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    First off, I'd like to welcome the minister to the committee and thank him very much for taking the time to be here.

    Mr. Chair, the minister has a very difficult job in terms of some of the objectives he wants to fulfill, particularly when it comes from a language perspective. Just a few days ago, our friend Dyane Adam came to committee, where she told us that she was deeply troubled by the fact that the French-speaking population was having difficulty keeping the demographic mix we've been able to enjoy throughout our history. She told us that the federal government should set concrete targets for the number of newcomers to be settled and retained in anglophone or francophone communities, and it must be able to monitor that process.

    On the other hand, I see that the researchers have prepared a question for us...and the minister has been speaking about pilot programs to target immigration to those areas that need it. The question begins, “How do you reconcile this objective with the right of mobility clearly guaranteed” under the constitution, in section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

    So it is a daunting task, sir, and you should be applauded for taking the measures you have.

    In that framework, because of the difficult situation we have...and I know that you have an immensely positive working relationship with our minister in New Brunswick, Norm Betts. I see quite categorically, in regard to those pilot projects you speak to, that in terms of maintaining that linguistic duality, New Brunswick would be an immensely positive laboratory for you to utilize. Minister Betts has focused on the issue that only 801 immigrants settled in New Brunswick last year. That's not exactly our “fair share” of the 250,000 persons.

    Can I then ask you, Minister, to highlight how your vision of pilot programs to maintain linguistic duality could really work in a New Brunswick context?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you, John.

    First of all, for the record, I will be in Fredericton on March 5, at which time I will make an announcement with Minister Betts and be more concrete on that.

    That's just a teaser for the media. Now let's talk about the principle.

    On the matter of mobility, as I said, we won't reinvent the wheel. We already have the temporary work permit. We made an agreement with Mexico and the Caribbean for farm workers. They're coming in on a temporary basis of six to eight months, and after that, of course, they're going back home. Their status permits us to direct them in certain areas. Now, if we have that validation process, if we have that recognition of foreign credentials, we will be able to do exactly the same thing. The agreement we will have with the newcomer to our country will be that based on a secure job, we will make the inventory of the needs--just as we did together when we were in your area--meet the enterprises, meet the government, and meet the communities. And if we need a certain amount of skilled workers, if they are recognized, we will identify them. We will say to them, come to Canada for a period of three to five years, but we have a secure job for you in a specific place. So if you want to come, you'll work there.

    Now, if they're coming as a landed immigrant, we cannot do that. The charter applies. But if they're coming in with a temporary work permit, we are able to do it. And if we're doing so--because we're doing it with the farm workers--after three to five years, by simple formality, since they will gain experience in an area, we will be able to provide them as a landed immigrant, as a permanent resident.

    But during that time, you have a tremendous partnership with all the stakeholders. And we will put in money to make sure that...and they will have to speak the language, because of course that's pretty helpful, especially if you're a doctor or a nurse. Besides that, we will be able to provide the tools so that they can come with their family and learn the language at the same time.

    You know, we don't talk enough about happiness. The environment of the family is very important to make sure that they will settle. And I'm pretty confident that by doing that, with the agreements we can reach with corporations, with governments, and the communities, this is an answer to make sure that those people remain in a specific area.

    Of course, after three to five years, when they've become landed immigrants, it's up to us to decide if they stay or not. But my guess is that if they're happy in their region, this is how you settle. This is what the Honourable Clifford Sifton did with the good farmers in western Canada, exactly that.

    We need to make sure that it can be done. Norm Betts is a tremendous ally. The Government of New Brunswick is the only province that's official bilingual, and they agree to also make sure that we will have francophone newcomers who come at the same time. But I don't want to get involved in what the percentage is. First of all, we need to make sure among ourselves that we agree on the way of working. I now feel very confident that the provinces and the territories are totally onside. They see the benefits of immigration and they understand the needs of their communities.

    So first things first. It's a buildup. Immigration is an ongoing approach. I will be able to be more specific on March 5. And you witness yourself that for foreign students, with the round table we have with all the corporations and enterprises, including McCain, Irving, and others, there is a need; the problem is, how can we get them to remain, and how can we make sure that we will have what we need to fulfill what we have in mind?

    So I guess we're on the right track. And I can't wait to go to your province again.

º  (1605)  

    Mr. John Herron: One last comment, Mr. Chair, is that we always dwell on the sometimes acrimony we have in interprovincial relations with the federal government and intergovernmental relations we have with the federal government, but if there's one example where the system really works it's in the partnership that the federal government has formed with respect to immigration with our provincial colleagues and in the relationship that Minister Coderre has developed with Minister Betts. That's the way things are supposed to be done.

    Thanks.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Simard.

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Welcome, Minister. Earlier on, you mentioned the roundtables that we held in Saint Boniface, and on behalf of the community, I wanted to thank you for your participation. In my opinion, that showed a rather serious commitment on your part.

    I also want to congratulate you for increasing the number of points for skills in French and English. This may seem odd, but welcoming people who are unilingual Francophones runs counter to our objective, since these people will be required to live in an environment that is 90% Anglophone, and not the opposite. One of the biggest challenges we face is finding people who have some knowledge of both languages. Generally speaking, we provide them with training in English. This whole issue is important for us. That was more of a comment than a question.

    I wanted to raise the issue of citizenship steering committees. At the roundtable, we found that the existing structure was not working. Generally speaking, it is managed by Anglophones. But they do not seem overly aware of Francophones' needs. For example, Francophones are being asked to live in Anglophone communities, and these people tend not to integrate into the schools and the community. For these reasons, we felt that it would be better for us to have our own settlement and integration structures. I would like to know if you agree with that principle.

    My second question is as follows. Our minority communities face challenges with respect to education, economics and culture, and as a result, we have a lot on our plate. Immigration issues are entirely new for us.

    Do you think that the committee could work with our people back home to develop structures similar to others in place throughout the country? That would prevent Saint Boniface from doing one thing and New Brunswick from doing something else. In your opinion, is it possible to establish links? At present, we are developing a strategic plan, but we have not contacted the committee to see if it is in force.

º  (1610)  

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you for your question. I think that communication is essential, but we have to be pragmatic as well. Our objective is to find a way to meet Manitoba's immigration needs. As regards numbers, we always start with 200 a year. When I came to this position, that number increased to 750, and, a year and a half ago, it increased to 1,500, if I remember correctly. Clearly, this is a dramatic increase, and sensitivity to this issue is stronger in Manitoba than anywhere else. I think we have all the elements we need to define a strategy for Manitoba.

    Personally, I am not one who thinks that everything has to be done in the same way everywhere. Some needs are specific to Quebec, others to New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba and the other provinces and territories. Strategically, it is good to have communication links so that we can agree on things. However, as far as I am concerned, the important thing is that we take concrete action to make things work.

    That is why we talk about pilot projects, in some cases. We are carrying out one in New Brunswick at the moment. We have a pilot project that is working very well with the government of Manitoba, and even the Premier is getting involved. This is really something new, Mr. Chairman. I have met with the Premier of Prince Edward Island. The Premier of Ontario, for his part, had already been lobbying for us to recognize the credentials of foreign physicians. In Quebec, the same is true; people are getting involved. Premier Doer played a role himself as well.

    I am not someone who is going to tell you whether or not you should establish a parallel structure. What works for you, works for you. Nevertheless, I do think that since we are living in an age of cooperation, we do have to ensure that we work together to define a strategy that will produce results. We have no time to lose, but before we start talking about money and bricks and mortar, it might be a good idea to discuss how we want the system to work and agree among ourselves on people's needs. At the same time, we must allow people to participate in a concrete way by bringing in newcomers. This is what is known as community action.

    In Yellowknife, they need diamond cutters. In Whitehorse, Yukon, there are 900 very dynamic francophones who are doing wonderful things; their needs are different and specific to the environment in which they live. For these reasons, there is a significant economic boom at the moment.

    Do you think I could try to impose a ready-made model or a miraculous solution and claim that what is good for Manitoba is good for the other provinces? No. I'm opposed to an approach of this type.

    In my view, your initiative shows that you are taking charge and that starting now, everyone should assume their responsibilities. If the province and its people decide on an approach, and as far as possible, we are able to support it, we are not going to start by going in with our cheque book. We will first ask you how far you are prepared to go and whether you are really serious when you say you want to bring in Francophones for your province. We will also ask you what steps you will take to keep them and we will ensure that there is no war against the provinces and the others. There is room for everyone.

    There are millions and millions of people in the world, including a large number of francophones. What could be described as the new renaissance of the francophone community throughout the world is a tool that you can use. We also have to go elsewhere and find a way to start regionalizing this immigration and ensuring that immigrants stay here. Otherwise, we will be wasting our time.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I could not agree more, and I do not think we should be using a cookie-cutter approach. However, I remain convinced that we must establish ties. All the provinces have certain unique features, and we must respect them, but I do think we have to talk to each other.

    Has the committee you mentioned already been established?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: A steering committee has already been established.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Is it made up of senior officials or people from the community, or both?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Both. All the participants talk to each other and work together.

º  (1615)  

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I see.

    The Chair: They will be appearing before us on Wednesday.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Is that so? Excellent. My last question is about the clauses that were signed in Nova Scotia and Manitoba. I think we are all pleased about that. But in concrete terms, what does this represent for the communities?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: That means that we are beginning a long journey and that that is one important step. Starting now, the provincial governments have made a commitment to work with the minority language communities and to give them a say. I think this is the beginning of a partnership that is both necessary and very concrete.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Reid, please.

[English]

    Mr. Scott Reid: Merci, monsieur le président.

    I just wanted to return, Minister, to the theme of immigrants perhaps being required to reside in a certain region of the country for a certain length of time. I gather that is five years, from what you're saying, on some form of work permit.

    Looking back in history, there was a time when people paid for their passage across the Atlantic, not so much to this country but to the American colonies, by entering into what was known as an indenture of service, typically for a period of seven years, during which time they would give up a substantial part of their freedom in order to pay for the fare across the Atlantic. Typically it would be young men with no families who would come over. At the end of that period of time they would be considered to have paid off their trip across the Atlantic by having engaged in service to somebody else.

    I'm having some difficulty distinguishing between what you're proposing and the indentured servitude, a practice of the eighteenth century that is no longer practised. I'm aware that there are some countries that have a version of that today, and it's a bit more civilized. I'm thinking in particular of some individuals I know who emigrated from Canada to Australia, and they were required, as a condition of their migration to Australia, to serve three years in the Australian armed forces. They had a guaranteed contract. They could not leave that contract during that period of time. But they had a guaranteed contract, and knew how much they were going to get paid. They had very specific information about their employer, the Royal Australian Air Force.

    In this case, we're presumably not saying that the Government of Canada or one of its agencies would be the employer. Presumably it would be some private employer, and you did refer to some kind of guaranteed employment. I'm not sure how one would guarantee a contract of employment with a private employer, but I thought perhaps you could enlighten us on these points and alleviate some of the concerns that I think you can see are in the subtext of my question.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Well, the funniest thing is, they even called me a Communist because I had that idea. I guess Clifford Sifton was a Communist too, I don't know.

    Mr. Scott Reid: I did want to correct you, incidentally, on your Clifford Sifton comment. My understanding, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that what Clifford Sifton did--

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Can I answer the question and then you can come back again? We'll talk later.

    Mr. Scott Reid: No, I'll just finish this thought.

    My understanding of Clifford Sifton was that he allowed people to come to Canada but they had to stay on their land a certain length of time in order to get ownership of the land, not to remain in Canada.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: You can interpret it the way you want, but the main thing is, we needed to populate western Canada, and it was good thing done by Mr. Sifton. If we have the western Canada we have right now, it's because of him. For a $10 fee you had a piece of land, and he was promoting good farmers. He was even picking specific countries to make sure that people were coming from those places. It was for western Canada.

    At any rate, the point is, every citizen deserves to have services in our country. We're not forcing anybody. We're making an agreement and it includes Canadian values. So if we're making an agreement with those individuals and we're telling them....

    You know, when you're in the field, talking with communities, do you know what they're saying? They're saying, “Where should I sign? I'm ready to do it.” I've been meeting with all those communities, and most of the time they're saying, “If I can finally have recognition of my foreign credentials once and for all, instead of driving that cab, and if I have the chance to finally provide a future for my family, so be it.”

    What are you saying to the farm workers? What are you saying to the agriculturalists, to the farmers who are hiring Mexicans and people from the Caribbean? That's the only reason they can have their harvest done in August. So that's exactly the same thing.

    Now, if they're coming as a landed immigrant, the charter applies, but I think this is a concrete way to give a chance to not only those families, those newcomers who are coming to Canada, but also to those citizens, because they believe right now there are two different Canadas. What are you going to say to those small communities in rural Canada? Do they deserve to have a nurse? Do they deserve to have a doctor, too? Do they have to exile themselves and say, “I cannot have my own hospital, my own doctor”? What are you going to say about those people?

    We can have a tremendous way of life in Saskatchewan, in Alberta, in Manitoba, in the territories--everywhere--if we give them a chance to contribute, to give them that kind of future. To live in Canada is not a right, it is a privilege. If we can at the same time develop our communities and help our francophones have another chance, and at the same time provide services to citizens, what's wrong with that? I think that's a good way to do it. That's good politics. That's concrete. To govern is to choose.

    But we're not putting a GPS to everybody's neck. What we're saying is, it's about an agreement. If they don't want to do it, okay. Tough luck. You don't want to do it, okay. But I'm providing another tool, another chance. Do you want to come to Canada? This is what we can offer you.

    So it's up to them to decide if they agree or not.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Scott Reid: My understanding was that you had referred to a guarantee of employment, or perhaps I didn't understand that.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Yes, a secure job.

    Mr. Scott Reid: What is the situation with regard to providing them with employment? And should employment not be available for the full term of the period, if I'm assuming five years, then what sort of provision is available to them other than returning to their country of origin in terms of allowing them to get on with having a productive life? Does it include, for example, moving away from the region to which they've been assigned to some other region in order to secure employment--assuming that a job is not available?

[Translation]

    Mr. Denis Coderre: My father always told me that there are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

    The important thing is to find a solution that will enable us to establish a partnership with all the communities. We had a round table discussion in Saint John, New Brunswick, involving representatives from a number of companies, and professionals who said—and Minister Norm Betts was there with me—that some business opportunities could be offered.

    So, clearly, there are some professionals, but there are also people who can work in various fields. We have to be serious here. If we want this to work, we must make sure that there is an agreement among all the sectors involved.

    But that is different from saying that we will take someone and force him or her to go to a certain region. But then what do we say to those living in regions with a very high unemployment rate? We must find a solution whereby our approach is both proactive and balanced. We must not convey the impression that we are taking a job away from someone; however, needs-based immigration may be one way of implementing this approach, provided there is a shortage and an employment opportunity, and we establish once and for all—and it is about time—a system for recognizing foreign credentials. That could be one way of proceeding with this agreement.

    The other issue that must be considered is foreign students. Foreign students in Canada could have a one-year off-campus work permit. Some people say that the permit should be for two years, but we would have to make sure that the person remains a student. That is why, if we can work with the business community and have this person make a commitment not only to work, but also to study in cooperation with the university, two things could happen. When such students get their degree, under the new legislation, they may now apply here and could perhaps work in this region, or at least leave it and come back later. However, since they will have had experience in a particular region, they will not only be inclined to go back to it, but also to spread their enthusiasm around, and bring in other people as well.

    If we do nothing, nothing will happen. People will be concentrated in certain places, and we will not have solved any of the problems. You may have heard that there are other sorts of social problems related to that. So we have to be pragmatic. We have to talk about language, the regions, the business community, and, in particular, we have to find ways of giving people a say about services, because they are taxpayers too.

º  (1625)  

    The Chair: Thank you. I'm going to use my seven minutes as well, Minister. I have a few questions for you.

    The first is about recognizing credentials, a subject that has been touched on two or three times. You mentioned Ontario specifically, and said that the Premier of Ontario is interested in this issue.

    In your discussions with provincial representatives, do you ensure that the provinces require professional associations to recognize credentials in both languages? This can cause some problems, for example in a province such as Ontario, where there is only one official language, English.

    One specific example would be psychiatry. We must acknowledge that this professional body tends to recognize foreign credentials, but for Anglophones only. There are needs on the French-speaking side as well, but in this case, they are not being met.

    I do not know how you operate—whether it is through agreement, bargaining or otherwise—but in your discussions with the provinces, do you ensure that linguistic duality applies as regards recognizing foreign credentials?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Ontario is the only province that does not have a provincial agreement, because of course, it is a particular case since 60 per cent of all immigrants go to Ontario and the vast majority of them go to Greater Toronto. However, Minister DeFaria and I have in fact agreed to sign an agreement. An agreement is required for Ontario. Northern Ontario is suffering as well. There are a number of regions with specific needs, but you know that better than I. That is the first point.

    Second, if we have an agreement on provincial nominees, for skilled workers, I will of course be requiring a clause on official languages as well. By requiring a clause on official languages, that means that if we need a particular Francophone professional, we must also find a validation process within the professional associations to ensure that the individual in question can in fact meet the needs and criteria so as to ensure people's safety.

    Naturally, we will have a follow-up policy and we agreed that there will be another federal-provincial conference this year to see where we are at. So my objective is to have an agreement in all parts of the country so that we can move toward having clauses on official languages. In return, in any case, I do not want to get involved in areas of provincial jurisdiction. However, they have made a commitment to establish an agreement with the professional bodies, because this is in their interest and there are some weaknesses in this regard.

    The Chair: And the principle of linguistic duality will be applied to these professional bodies as well.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Of course, if necessary. How do you think we can comply with the Provincial Nominees Program?

    The Chair: But that will be part of your discussions with the provinces.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Yes.

    The Chair: Thank you. Last week we heard from representatives of the Quebec Community Group Network who told us about their concerns about the Anglophone community in Quebec, and the exodus of this community over the last 15 years.

    They referred to the existing agreement, which was first signed—I believe it was the Cullen-Couture Agreement—and was renewed in the early 1990s, if I remember correctly. They asked whether there was a clause on the official languages in that agreement.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: No.

    The Chair: We knew the answer. So the question was: Is the government of Canada prepared to reopen this agreement?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: We would reopen this agreement if there were a consensus between the two parties. There is no consensus between the two, and I have no intention of reopening this agreement.

    I have some figures, and I will table this chart later. You may distribute it.

    In 2001, the provincial breakdown of immigrants was as follows: there were 108,816 Anglophone immigrants in Canada, not counting Quebec, and 5,959 in Quebec. Francophone immigrants outside Quebec totalled 1,809, and for Quebec, 9,506. There were 4,947 bilingual immigrants in Canada, not counting Quebec, and 8,080 in Quebec. Immigrants who spoke neither of the two languages totalled 97,346, including 13,883 in Quebec.

    So there is a certain percentage. There is a renewal of the Anglophone community under this agreement.

º  (1630)  

    The Chair: But it is not enough, according to the people we heard from. In any case, I have my answer. We are going to be hearing from the steering committee on Wednesday of this week. Has the possibility of establishing the equivalent for the Anglophone community of Quebec been considered?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: No, but I can make a note of that.

    The Chair: If the community were to request that, is it something you would consider?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: What I can tell you is that we are open and we talk to all the communities. But as to actually establishing... I will have to see evidence regarding the need for such a committee. But I am very respectful of the agreements. We have a Quebec-Canada agreement that is working wonderfully well and we have spent huge amounts on integration and all sorts of related matters. I hope that the Quebec government representatives who are listening to our discussions here are taking notes as well, because that is now part of the agreement, and the implementation of the agreement comes under Quebec's jurisdiction.

    The Chair: We have also heard from representatives from Statistics Canada, who gave us figures that are very similar to yours. What struck me is that the majority of immigrants who go to Quebec learn both languages—French and English. However, outside Quebec, a very small percentage of immigrants learn both languages—90 per cent learn English.

    What percentage of the resources spent by the government of Canada or transferred to the provinces goes to learning English as a second language and French as a second language? It does not matter if you do not have the figures handy, but perhaps they could be sent to us later. Could we get that information?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Do we have that?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith (Co-chair, Director General, Integration, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Citizenship and Immigration Canada - Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee): The total is $173 million, of which roughly 80 per cent is spent on language training.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: But you do not have the percentages for English and French?

    Ms. Rosaline Frith: No, it is mainly for training in English. There is training in French in Ontario and New Brunswick, and Manitoba contributes a little through its agreement. I do not think there is any language training in French elsewhere in Canada.

    The Chair: Could we get the list and the mechanisms as well?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Absolutely.

    The Chair: Could you tell us how this training is done, so that we have a fairly specific idea about this?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: You can understand the importance of these language clauses for the provincial program since Minister Dion's new action plan will be coming into effect and funds will be directed to immigration. We will have an increasing number of tools at our disposal and now with the provincial involvement in the language clauses, there will be an effect on the future.

    The Chair: Minister, there is no doubt that change is taking place but it is a long up-hill climb and we haven't yet begun. I've used up my time. We will move to second round.

    Ms. Dalphond-Guiral.

º  (1635)  

    Mr. Denis Coderre: I'll have to leave in 15 minutes.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: You have provided us with figures. I have before me the figures for 1999, 2000 and 2001. The number of francophone immigrants settling outside Quebec amounted to 3,200 in 1999, 5,500 in 2000 and 6,700 in 2001, that is approximately 2 to 3 per cent of the total number of immigrants.

    When we talk about encouraging Francophone immigration outside Quebec, one of Ms. Adam's important aims, and I suppose you share it, is to have these new immigrants stay permanently. Is anyone studying a fact that appears from the figures, namely that when francophone immigrants settle outside Quebec, only in one out of two cases do they remain? That is a very high level. In Quebec we are disturbed when we do not keep all our immigrants, but nonetheless we do retain 8 out of 10. Here we are talking about one out of two.

    So it is clear to me that there is a problem. Where do they go? Do they come to Quebec? Do they go to the United States? Do they go to a large centre where they are assimilated? It may be that generous intentions are hard to implement. I'd like to hear your view on the matter.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: There are several factors. First of all, what we are looking for is not Francophone immigration outside Quebec but merely Francophone immigration. That is an important fact.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: You understood the point I was making.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: A number of people leave to go to in large centres like Toronto or Vancouver. This is not necessarily revealed in the figures. We know for example that there are people who leave Quebec to go to the U.S. or even to Ontario.

    For this reason, among others, we decided to set up a steering committee. We wish to empower the various communities, determine which cities have a sizeable francophone population and where we can implement pilot projects. These projects will enable us to try out a number of things—and we're not just talking about empty promises here—in order to ensure that immigration can become a tool for development.

    We want Francophone immigration to be an integral part of our overall immigration approach. For this reason, it was high time for us to have a federal-provincial conference.

    I am not saying that others have not made an effort. As a matter of fact, following the disclosure of the figures you just mentioned, there was a kind of collective awakening. The other figures from the census made us realize that it was time to change the legislation and become aware of the fact that with our new system, we were experiencing an important transition.

    There is also the question of citizenship, which we may discuss sometime. But it is quite obvious that we must come up with ways of retaining these people. One possibility would be to give greater importance to skilled workers, namely 60 per cent, who come with their family. That could contribute to family reunification. At the same time, it would enable us to improve the economic situation as well as to increase the likelihood that these people will remain in a particular region. But in order to do this, the various communities will have to become involved. We will have to be able to count on the contribution of all the partners. Our impression is that this is how things are proceeding at the moment.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: First of all, we know that the French, the Belgians and the Swiss do not immigrate, they are happy to stay where they are. Some immigrants do come here from the Middle East and Africa. However, since 2001, the Mid-East is not perceived as a good place to come from.

    So I wonder how we are going to succeed convincing Francophones to immigrate to Canada and to settle outside Quebec. How are we going to go about it? It strikes me as being rather unfeasible.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: In my opinion, our biggest challenge is still to come up with a balance between openness and vigilance. The purpose of our policy is not to erect walls but rather to regularize the operation of the doors. We were experiencing some problems with this and we are now looking after them. That does not mean that we should stop our efforts.

    I have been to North Africa and to Cameroon on a number of occasions. I had the opportunity to meet various leaders. I think that it is important for us to avoid generalizations. The fact that someone is from the Mid-East or from Northern Africa since the events, should not... I know that that is not what you said. But it is important for us to make this clarification.

    Canada is a welcoming country and terrorism knows no religion or nationality. We must find the tools that will enable us to attract Francophones, wherever they come from, who can make a contribution to the development of Canada.

    We celebrate difference. We can be both equal and different. I wish to emphasize the fact, because it is something unique in the world, that 80 per cent of all new arrivals will become Canadian citizens. Contrary to Europe, where immigration is often considered to be illegal migration, we celebrate this difference, we want people to settle here.

    I think we must fight against cynicism and a trend towards labelling so that these people feel welcome. Those who come here for the wrong reasons will face the consequences. In any case, I do not intend to make generalizations.

º  (1640)  

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Lincoln.

    Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Minister, the Commissioner for Official Languages suggested last year to the Immigration Committee that the two official languages be mentioned in the Citizenship Act, which would be amended accordingly.

    Do you agree with this idea? Are you considering amending the Act in the near future?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: I'll wait for the report of the standing committee. I know that the committee will be proposing amendments. There are people here who are also members of the Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. What I am looking for is respect for the principles of our country, our Canadian values, as well as a certain pragmatism in respecting such principles. I'll wait for the recommendations and I don't think that anyone will say that I am not defending Francophone communities or bilingualism in this country. I don't want to do the job of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. So I'll wait for its recommendations to find out what it has to say and then I'll make my position known.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Reid.

[English]

    Mr. Scott Reid: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I wanted to ask a question on a somewhat different issue, and that is visitors visas to the country, in particular the process by which visitors visas can be granted or refused by--

    The Chair: Mr. Reid, is this related to official languages?

[Translation]

    Mr. Denis Coderre: No.

[English]

    Mr. Scott Reid: No, this is related to visitors visas, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: This is official languages. I give lots of latitude. If it's related to official languages, proceed, but if it's not....

    Mr. Scott Reid: Okay. I'll catch the minister afterwards.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: I have a quick question, minister.

    Reference was made to agreements between the federal government and the provinces. I have a list here from February 1999 to November 2002. We have discussed the situation in Quebec, Ontario, and the only province missing on my list is British Columbia. What is happening in British Columbia, where there is after all a sizeable francophone community, at least in Vancouver?

    Mr. Denis Coderre: Let me tell you about it, we have two minutes.

    As far as British Columbia is concerned, there are studies underway, pilot projects, as well as work being done by the steering committee. As regards concentration, there is of course Vancouver but there are also Francophones in Kelowna and other specific places.

    We do have an agreement with British Columbia but in the renewal, we are now talking about a clause on official languages.

    The Chair: Minister, I received representations from constituents asking whether there was sufficient French-language capacity on the Immigration and Refugee Board. Are you aware of the situation and are you satisfied with it? If things are fine, then good enough and if they are not, then measures will be taken to correct the situation.

    Mr. Denis Coderre: You know that all operations come under the responsibility of the Board. The Board representatives can discuss the matter with you but I know that in the appointment process, we do ensure that in various parts of the country we have bilingual people or people who can speak French.

    The Chair: Thank you for coming here today and answering our questions.

[English]

    If the members would stay for a minute, we have just a quick matter of business to deal with.

º  (1645)  

[Translation]

    We do not have a quorum, so if I may, I would like to clarify a matter.

    You may have received an invitation from the National Film Board. In any case, I did. They are offering to screen a short film at one of our meetings. The copy that I received and that I looked at is entitled A Licence to Remember: Je me souviens un certain souvenir. It is a story based on the motto, Je me souviens, the motto on the Quebec licence plates. I admit that I did try to understand what links there might be with the work being done by the Official Languages Committee and I had some trouble. If any of you are interested in seeing this short film, you may let the NFB know, but if I may, I intend to decline their offer on behalf of the committee and tell them that we will pursue our work without viewing the film.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Will you send me a copy?

    The Chair: I'll be glad to lend it to you. Is that all right? I'll see that the copy is circulated.

    On Wednesday we'll be receiving the Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. We may have to vote on two or three items, so quorum will be necessary.

    Have a good evening. Thank you. The meeting is adjourned.