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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, May 26, 2003

1535

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)

1540

1545

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

1550

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr (Committee Researcher)

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Cyr

1555

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.)

1600

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

1605

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.)

1610

The Chair

1615

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. John Wright (Research Officer, Library of Parliament)

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

1620

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

1625

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. Julian Reed

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Julian Reed

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

1630

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

1635

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

1640

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. John Wright

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

1645

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Judi Longfield

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Judi Longfield

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

1650

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

1655

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

1700

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

1705

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Ovid Jackson

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.)

1710

1715

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Benoît Serré

1720

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Benoît Serré

1725

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

1730

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

1735

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. John Wright

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

1740

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

1745

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Serré

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Serré

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 012

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, May 26, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1535)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Our first witness this afternoon is Mr. Wood, from Nipissing.

Mr. Wood, we have some wonderful support from André Cyr from Elections Canada. If you reference specific areas, we can do number counts and what have you. You have a laser pointer there, for which points are deducted for each committee member you blind.

We are on 99 in the big book, and what they consulted on is map 1 in this document, page 8.

Mr. Wood, any time.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to present my views on the proposed riding redistribution of Nipissing. I object, obviously, to the proposed boundaries for Nipissing, as outlined in the Electoral Boundaries Commission report for Ontario. In particular, I really object to the loss of any electoral districts in northern Ontario. We lost one in the previous redistribution, which was in 1991. I think if we lose another one as projected, it would be rather devastating for the whole of northern Ontario.

I totally understand the wish of the commission to try to bring the ridings into line with the desired population standards, but as I said, this proposal in my mind would be detrimental to the electorate.

Northern Ontario I believe is unique because of the vast distances between populated areas. By eliminating one riding and redistributing the polls to existing ridings, the constituents are facing less representation and less chance of interaction with their elected member of Parliament. The ideal situation, as far as I'm concerned, obviously, would be to leave the northern Ontario ridings as they are right now. However, if some sort of redistribution must occur, and you feel you have to expand the Nipissing riding as far as population goes, it could be expanded west to include the current West Nipissing municipalities instead of expanding northward and keep Timiskaming. I think it's right in this area where Sturgeon Falls is. That would be the logical choice. Rather than having it come over from Nickel Belt, we could take in that particular area.

The proposed northern part of the new riding in the New Liskeard region really has little in common with the North Bay area. I think you can see that. This up here really is farmland and cattle country, a lot of agriculture, and here in Nipissing not a lot of farmland but mainly forest products, some mining going on, and railroading.

Because of the distance between the two areas, I feel the northern sector obviously would lose much of its economic, cultural, and social identity, mainly due to the fact that in New Liskeard and in that area there's a small population but the main hub of the place is in North Bay, where the population is around 55,000 to 60,000.

Before the last distribution, as I said, the town of Sturgeon Falls and the west of North Bay and the surrounding communities were part of the Nipissing riding. There is already an established relationship between West Nipissing and my district. West Nipissing has far more economical, social, and historical ties to North Bay than any other riding. As you can see, where Sturgeon Falls is right in this area, it's a short 20-minute drive to North Bay. They have a lot of economic ties, as I said, whereas the way it's set up now, they would have to go quite a distance, because they're part of the Sudbury area. It certainly relates more to Nipissing than it does to the proposed Timiskaming--Cochrane riding, especially when it comes to culture and economic development.

West Nipissing is a very compact area less than 25 miles west of North Bay. These residents, as I said before, already have easy access to the Nipissing area and also to my constituency office. And right now, if they really stayed within their borders, they would be dealing with this, but it's much easier to come to North Bay. Many residents already travel for employment purposes to the riding. Families in these neighbourhoods are likely to use North Bay services for retail and other necessities, as opposed to the rural area north of them. It's not unusual for me to get complaints from that area on EI or CPP requests for help, and also certainly passport applications from the West Nipissing population.

According to the population figures from Stats Canada, by adding the West Nipissing area, which we just talked about, the riding would increase by more than 13,000 people, which would probably put it right into the proposed population draw that Elections Canada is thinking about. Dropping the northern portion of the province and staying with the riding of Nipissing--Timiskaming--Cochrane would mean a loss of just over 12,000 people there, and I think you could pick up about 13,000 people where we were before.

So I can tell you, Madam Chair, that the proposed northern Ontario boundary changes will make it much more difficult for the electorate to obtain some fair representation. I urge the commission to really consider leaving the boundaries as they are. And if changes are required, I urge the commission to return the community of West Nipissing to the riding of Nipissing instead of expanding my riding north.

¹ (1540)

It's also interesting that the commission looked at not reducing northern Ontario ridings more than 25%. I could be wrong here, but I believe that's the deal. In Bob Nault's riding, which is Kenora--Rainy River, I think they've reduced it by 45% less of his riding. So they've certainly made some adjustments. They've made some adjustments to different ridings.

Right now we have a bigger population than some of the ridings in Saskatchewan. I believe the Saskatchewan average is about 63,000. Right now northern Ontario's around 72,000. In P.E.I., of course, they have four MPs for 130,000. New Brunswick and Newfoundland I believe are smaller than the ridings in northern Ontario.

So we would certainly encourage keeping Nipissing. We would certainly like to see Nipissing take back Sturgeon Falls and that area because of the geographic location, and to have Nipissing and Timiskaming stay the same. Also, we would like to keep our current 11 representatives.

Thank you.

¹ (1545)

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): I wonder if I could ask Mr. Cyr to again put up the map he had earlier that showed the old riding and the new riding.

I wanted to ask Mr. Wood, and I have my own laser pointer--

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, great. We'll have a battle here. The guy's organized.

Mr. Scott Reid: That's right. I was told this morning we had a laser pointer crisis, and I brought my own in to solve it for us, but as it turned out, we resolved it.

This area here is Sturgeon Falls, is that correct?

Mr. Bob Wood: From what I can see, yes, I think that is, right in there.

Mr. Scott Reid: What I wanted to ask is was Sturgeon Falls a separate municipality that was merged over the last couple of years since the last redistribution?

Mr. Bob Wood: It was, Mr. Reid. It was called Sturgeon Falls, and then it merged with some of the smaller communities around Sturgeon Falls. I think they're called Stringer Lake, Cache Bay, Field. We all represented that area at one time. It's now called West Nipissing.

Mr. Scott Reid: That includes the area that stretches out on this map to the west of Lake Nipissing.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, a little bit there, not a lot, though.

Mr. Scott Reid: So what I'm wondering is would making the change you propose involve just moving back Sturgeon Falls, or the whole current municipality of West Nipissing?

Mr. Bob Wood: It would just be the municipality of West Nipissing, which would take in.... It would make it a little bit easier--I believe, anyway--for the people of Nipissing.

Mr. Scott Reid: Sure. I'm just trying to get an idea. So on that map, it would be basically up to this line here, is that correct?

Mr. Bob Wood: No, I think it would be right in this area somewhere. I believe it would come straight down like this. I think that's how it works.

Mr. Scott Reid: I had another question. I must say the maps that are provided here are particularly bad for your riding in particular, because it's not geographically a large riding and yet you have to rely on this, the map of the province as a whole. But it looks to me like they've made very substantial changes between the initial proposal and the report.

Mr. Bob Wood: Absolutely. We were under the impression that the Nickel Belt was the one that was maybe going to be changed. I had no knowledge that it was going to be this particular area.

In the last redistribution--I think I'm right here, and maybe Mr. Cyr can tell me if I'm wrong--this was a proposal that was also first looked at in 1991. It was discarded then. They wanted to do this I think in 1991, the last time they did the redistribution. I think it was deemed not feasible then.

Mr. Scott Reid: Did the number of ridings for northern Ontario shift? Did that shift between the initial proposal that came out last August and the March proposal, or is there the same number of ridings in the north?

Mr. Bob Wood: Right at the moment it's the same number. Now, if it goes into effect we'll be losing one.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, what I mean is not between the status quo and the report, but between the August proposals and the March proposals. Did the number of ridings in northern Ontario stay the same?

Mr. Bob Wood: They stayed the same. The only time they've changed since I've been there--I've been elected since 1988--was in 1997, when we lost a riding around the Timmins area.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay, thank you very much.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): That little area you referred to, what was the name of it--Sturgeon Falls?

¹ (1550)

Mr. Bob Wood: Sturgeon Falls, yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And you say there are about 13,000 people in the area.

Mr. Bob Wood: There are about 6,000 to 8,000 people in Sturgeon Falls, and then there are a few little outlying areas.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, as I understand it, to incorporate Sturgeon Falls back into Nipissing--Timiskaming, you would retain what's there in the dark colours, is that correct?

Mr. Bob Wood: What we would like to do, Mr. Borotsik, is obviously keep Nipissing the way it is and just take in this little spot in here, which would allow this area to stay and have its own representative.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, that's a bigger issue than simply the incorporation of Sturgeon Falls, because they haven't gone through all of the machinations as to the number of ridings, as Mr. Reid has alluded to. But if Sturgeon Falls were to go back into Nipissing--Timiskaming, it would come out of Nickel Belt, as it's proposed here.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I think Nickel Belt has approximately the same population as yours currently, with Sturgeon Falls.

Mr. Bob Wood: I think it could be, yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you would be taking--

Mr. Bob Wood: It's about 89,000, isn't it? With the new ones we'd be what?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Your Nipissing would go up 13,000 and he would go down 13,000, so you would be at 102,000 and he would be down to 70,000.

Mr. Bob Wood: No, I'm proposing we do not--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Take that other.

Mr. Bob Wood: I'm proposing we keep Timiskaming--Cochrane as a riding, so we don't lose the representative.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Keep the status quo.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, and there's the fact that in some areas, like in Saskatchewan, they have a smaller proportion. I guess it's the same in New Brunswick. I don't know how it all works, but I know in some areas of rural Canada.... It's important in rural Canada to have representation. It may not always work out population-wise, but it's a big area, and I think you need that type of representation.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It's always a question that is asked, and I should ask it: where in the riding do you reside at the present time?

Mr. Bob Wood: I reside in North Bay.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Right in North Bay, which would be staying in the--

Mr. Bob Wood: I'm looking to move to Sturgeon Falls, though.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: There's the answer, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Mr. Bob Wood: No, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not running again. I've made up my mind, so there you go.

The Chair: He's not moving to Sturgeon Falls; he has his coffee shop in North Bay.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, but he can still live in Sturgeon Falls and commute. It's only 20 minutes. Bob just told us it's only 20 minutes to drive to the constituency office.

Mr. Bob Wood: That's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thanks, Bob.

By the way, that's the chair's question all the time.

The Chair: Yes.

So Sturgeon Falls is currently in Timiskaming--Cochrane, but so is New Liskeard and all that area.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes.

The Chair: But if you were to shift.... They consulted on having New Liskeard out, but did they consult on having Sturgeon Falls in or out?

Mr. Bob Wood: No, I think it was out, Madam Chair, and they consulted on keeping New Liskeard, I believe.

The Chair: In a riding called Timiskaming--Greater Sudbury.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, I believe so.

The Chair: André, can you tell if it was consulted, map 1 on page 1 of the consultation document? It looks as if it goes over--

Mr. André Cyr (Committee Researcher): Yes. West Nipissing was in the electoral district of Timiskaming--Greater Sudbury.

The Chair: In the consultation.

Mr. Bob Wood: They're recommending it go into Nickel Belt, right?

Mr. André Cyr: Correct.

The Chair: Okay.

If we were to redraw Nipissing around Sturgeon Falls, would that cut off any of the bottom part of Nickel Belt's people? According to this map on page 99 of the final document.... It's hard to see.

Mr. Bob Wood: Go ahead, André.

Mr. André Cyr: You want to move West Nipissing to which area?

The Chair: To Nipissing, and then look at what's left in Nickel Belt.

Mr. André Cyr: Okay.

The Chair: It wouldn't cut off anything, would it?

New Liskeard is proposed to be in Nickel Belt.

Mr. Bob Wood: In Nipissing; that's the new proposal.

Mr. André Cyr: The area in yellow, which is West Nipissing, would be added to Nipissing, and the area in purple remains Greater Sudbury.

¹ (1555)

Mr. Bob Wood: That's in Nickel Belt, is it?

Mr. André Cyr: Correct.

The Chair: It wouldn't cause the lower part of Nickel Belt to be separated from the upper part of Lake Temagami, would it?

Mr. André Cyr: No. And there are 14,500 in that area

The Chair: If we brought the top of your riding closer to—what? To Temagami?

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, Temagami would be fine. It would just go up it.

The Chair: What happens with your numbers?

Mr. Bob Wood: I think we're right there. Right now we just go outside of North Bay a little bit as we head north.

The Chair: Do you have to go that far?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 15,000 in the area north of Nipissing.

Mr. Bob Wood: It would be just a switch, or just about a switch.

The Chair: You might not have to come down quite that far, though, would you?

Mr. Bob Wood: In terms of population, if you're looking to increase Nipissing, you could take in Sturgeon Falls and, as I said, leave Timiskaming--Cochrane as one. I'm sure you're going to hear from some of my northern colleagues. Obviously, we would prefer to have ten or eleven MPs and not lose one.

The Chair: Nickel Belt currently is minus 16,000, so there would have to be some adjustment for Nickel Belt, because they'd be under even more than 16,000.

Mr. Bob Wood: Would they?

The Chair: Yes, if you take part of Nickel Belt out and add it to yours. It's not Timiskaming.

Mr. Bob Wood: They're at 89,000, I think, now.

The Chair: It's not Timiskaming and James Bay we need to add population to; it's Nickel Belt we need to add population to. Could they be joined up with New Liskeard or not?

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, they could.

Mr. Scott Reid: The road goes through there.

Mr. Bob Wood: There's the east-west road, yes. Highway 17 goes right through there, Scott. It goes right through North Bay and right up through Nickel Belt and Sudbury and keeps right on trucking to the Sault.

The Chair: Would adding it to Nickel Belt make more sense? Do we have the MP for Nickel Belt coming before us?

Mr. Bob Wood: I don't know if he is or not. I don't know.

The Chair: Who is Nickel Belt?

Mr. Bob Wood: Bonin.

Serré is going to be here tonight, I think.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Bob Wood: All right?

The Chair: All right.

Does anybody else have a question?

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: It wasn't Highway 17 I was talking about. Isn't there a road there that goes from—

Mr. Bob Wood: Highway 11 goes up through there, Scott.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, Highway 11 goes north, but I was speaking of going east-west from the New Liskeard area.

Mr. Bob Wood: There is a small road, Highway 560, that cuts across there.

The Chair: Is that okay, Mr. Reid?

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood: Thank you, Madame Chair.

The Chair: Mr. Reid, I think Mr. Keyes wanted to have two seconds of your time. It's okay with us. Is it okay with you?

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes.

The Chair: He wants future consideration in a caucus meeting.

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): Thanks for the indulgence of my colleague, the member for Halton, Madam Chair, and thank you for your indulgence and the committee's indulgence.

I have taken into account the suggestion that was made at our last meeting and feel that all it would do is further complicate the issue for myself and the riding. For that reason, I suppose I am going to have to accept the fact that Westdale, by the definition of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, will no longer be a part of Hamilton West. I had hoped we could have made some changes, as suggested, with Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot, as it now exists—still agreeing that Aldershot does not have a community of interest with Ancaster, Dundas, and Flamborough, just as Westdale does not have a community of interest with Ancaster, Dundas, and Flamborough—and expand Ancaster, Dundas, and Flamborough more north and west than south and east. But that doesn't appear to fit the bill.

In order to make the population work to accommodate Westdale in a new riding, we'd have to move the Hamilton West eastern boundary west from Ottawa Street back to say Sherman Avenue, but that would entail bringing Hamilton East back and bringing the proverbial house of cards toppling down.

Caucus in fact does not have a problem with the issue of shifting west by a few streets to accommodate Westdale in Hamilton West. Unfortunately, it would take a change in no less than five ridings to accommodate the Westdale situation.

º (1600)

The Chair: What about the Mohawk Road area?

Mr. Stan Keyes: The difficulty is that just as Westdale has a community of interest with Hamilton West, so too does that chunk of the mountain, Madam Chair. It also has its community of interest with Hamilton, not with Ancaster or Flamborough. It would just be trading off one child for another, and I'm not prepared to do that either.

If the committee is willing to make that accommodation of moving all the ridings east of the Hamilton West eastern border by a few streets in order to accommodate Westdale, that would be wonderful, but I realize the complication it would entail. As the Electoral Boundaries Commission told me at Hamilton City Hall, when I made this presentation to them at the time, they didn't appear too willing to make such a massive change in order to accommodate Westdale in Hamilton West.

The Chair: Are you actually withdrawing your objection, or are we still considering your earlier comments?

Mr. Stan Keyes: If the committee's prepared to consider, as I say, moving the boundaries east of me—in the proverbial house of cards—from east to west, that would be wonderful, and I'll leave that in your hands. If it's a possibility, the constituents of Hamilton West and in particular of Westdale would be most appreciative.

The Chair: Our only challenge is going to be where to make up the population from Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Westdale.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes, that would be the challenge.

I understand too that a request can be made for a riding name change, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Stan Keyes: When you look at the map, the bulk of Hamilton West, which is now going to be Hamilton Centre under the currently suggested configuration, is for the most part in Hamilton. Unless you're on the east side of Hamilton, where you'd call it Hamilton East, or the mountain end of Hamilton, where you'd call it Hamilton Mountain, I suggest that Hamilton Centre just be called Hamilton, to save any complication or query. If you're “Hamilton”, you know you're in that brown area on the map in front of you. If you're on Hamilton Mountain, it's very clear where you are: you're on a mountain. And if you're in Hamilton East, it's very clear you're in the east end of Hamilton.

That would be the other suggestion I'd have: to change the name just to Hamilton, to simplify matters.

The Chair: Okay.

Are there any questions or comments?

Thank you, Mr. Keyes.

º (1605)

Mr. Stan Keyes: Thank you very much, again, for your indulgence, and thanks to the member for Halton.

Thanks, Julian.

The Chair: Mr. Reed.

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I'd like to thank the committee for this opportunity to talk about the impacts of the boundary commission's work as it affects the riding of Halton.

Today I would like to focus on two aspects. The first has to do with separating one municipality from its sister municipalities of the region and putting it together with another area with which it shares no community of interest. The second has to do with the proposed southern boundary with the riding of Burlington.

Let me begin with a quick overview of the area. The region of Halton is made up of four municipalities: Burlington, Oakville, Milton, and Halton Hills. The riding I serve, as it currently exists, is composed of all of Milton, all of Halton Hills, and the northern parts of Burlington and Oakville. All these towns have experienced phenomenal, unprecedented growth through the 1990s, and the end of development is not in sight.

In 2002 Milton had a population of 42,100. By 2010 it's going to be at least 70,100. As of the last census, in 2001, the region had a population of 375,229. According to the commission, that means it is too small for four ridings and too big for three. What is really unfortunate is that the census numbers are already out of date, and this numbers exercise is a snapshot in time that can't accommodate our communities. Halton is in the middle of everything, and because of that, it seemed to become the commission's target to accommodate growth in the rest of the GTA.

To its credit, the commission has backed away from its original proposal to split the town of Halton Hills without regard for its municipal boundaries. The latest proposal does recognize Halton Hills and deals with it as a complete entity. Unfortunately, in giving so much weight to the numbers argument, the commission fails to recognize the equally valid argument of community of interest.

The commission did not recognize community of interest as a guiding principle for the proposed Burlington, Oakville, and Halton districts, all of which are contained within the regional municipality of Halton. On the other hand, they have brought together south Wellington County, the area encircling the city of Guelph, with Halton Hills, to form a new riding called Wellington--Halton Hills. This effectively divorces Halton Hills from the rest of Halton region. The former towns of Acton and Georgetown, the hamlets of Stewarttown, Glen Williams, and Norval, and the former township of Esquesing, now known as the town of Halton Hills, have been part of the former County of Halton, the region of Halton since 1974, for over 150 years.

The town of Halton Hills shares a documented social, economical, political, and physical community of interest in the regional municipality of Halton, along with the towns of Milton, Oakville, and the city of Burlington.

The report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission to place the town of Halton Hills in an electoral district with Wellington County is of serious concern to the mayor and council of the town of Halton Hills, its residents, and the directly elected chairman of Halton region.

We recognize that the commission has improved upon its original proposal to split the town of Halton Hills and now acknowledges municipal boundaries. At the same time, however, there's an affinity of interest with Wellington County.

At this point, I would ask that this committee and commission give a higher regard to the communities of interest argument, and not just the numbers. Halton is one of the fastest-growing areas in Canada. To ensure adequate representation for the residents, the commission should be prescient and accommodate that growth now by designing four ridings in Halton, perhaps along the lines proposed by the region of Halton in the fall.

Turning now to the southern boundary of the proposed riding of Halton, the corner of Burlington referred to as the Palmer community, bounded by Upper Middle Road, Walkers Line, the Queen Elizabeth Way, and Guelph Line, should remain in the riding of Burlington, as initially proposed by the commission. It was moved to the riding of Halton by the commission even though this was never proposed and no one at the public hearings requested that it be included in Halton.

In fact, the commission wrote:

The only other change to this electoral district is to follow a suggestion made at the hearing that Guelph Line be the north–south boundary between Dundas Street and Upper Middle Road rather than Highway No. 407.

So why this entire community was moved is a mystery. Their words--which are on page 34--are not reflected in the map on pages 106 and 107.

º (1610)

The mature area of Burlington known as Palmer is located south of Upper Middle Road and very much identifies itself as part of the city of Burlington. It has no ties to rural Milton. The schools, churches, and community centres focus on Burlington activities and access federal services in Burlington. The Palmer area shares recognized social, economic, and political ties and a physical community of interest with the riding and city of Burlington.

The residents of Palmer do not have accessible transit to travel outside of the Burlington area to go to Milton to see their MP. There's no north-south public transit. The residents of Palmer associate with Burlington. They should not be flipped back and forth between ridings each time the redistribution process occurs, especially since this latest change was not one on which they were consulted.

I would respectfully suggest that the southern boundary of the proposed Halton riding, where it meets Burlington, be redrawn. I have a drawing here that might assist the staff.

I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity, and I would be pleased to respond to any questions you might have. I might also add that I have a page of number changes that is rather telling, which might assist in the decision on the southern end.

I should also point out that the city of Burlington has essentially filled up; it's mature now. The towns of Milton and Halton Hills are undergoing spectacular growth. It's growth that you won't comprehend anywhere else in Canada at the present time. So relying on the 2001 census as the basis for putting the numbers together really doesn't fit the situation we face in Halton.

I have brought maps that generally show the riding as it exists at the present time, the electoral commission proposals, and the proposal that Halton region put together to create a riding called Halton Centre, which would make it into four ridings, which would be very valid well before the next census takes place. So I give those to you for your consideration, along with the numbers.

The Chair: Thank you.

Colleagues, I've spoken to most of you about this, but that bottom square, the brown one, is currently in my riding and Mr. Reed is suggesting putting it back in my riding. So I won't participate in the discussions on that, since that would put me in a bit of a conflict.

I open it up for discussion for the rest of you.

º (1615)

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Is that where your house is?

The Chair: No. Actually, I'm right about the “o” in Burlington. I'm sort of between the two Burlingtons. I'm right downtown by the water.

Mr. Reed or Mr. Godin, are there any questions?

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: What would those changes mean in percentage terms?

[English]

Mr. Julian Reed: Do you want the numbers on the change?

Mr. Yvon Godin: He's going to find it.

Mr. Julian Reed: I have them here, Yvon.

The number changes from what it originally was, or what it now is. With the replacement of Palmer, Halton goes down from 107,726 to 100,055. Burlington goes from 109,000 to 117,348. Now, that's within the 25%, and so on, but I should restate that Burlington is a mature, built-up area. The only way you're going to increase population in Burlington is to knock down houses and to put up more high-rises.

On the other hand, the figure for Halton is already out of date. Last week the returning officer held a meeting and predicted that in the next election, they were looking at a population for 130,000, and by the time the federal election comes along, 150,000. You would have no way of seeing how explosive it was unless you were there.

Mr. André Cyr: I'm not sure where the four ridings would be, but for the town of Halton Hills, there was a population of almost 50,000 in the 2001 census. So in your proposal, would you include Halton Hills and the town of Milton?

Mr. Julian Reed: Yes, and if a fourth riding were created, it would be at the south end of Milton, where part of the explosive growth is taking place, and also part farther north around urban Milton at present, Georgetown South, and Acton—I might add.

This proposal was really put together by or was the recommendation of the region of Halton. I might also add that before the Government of Ontario adopted the federal boundaries, they already had four ridings in Halton, including Halton Centre, Halton North, Burlington, and Oakville.

Mr. John Wright (Research Officer, Library of Parliament): Sorry, but just for clarification and to reflect this accurately when I am writing it up, are you suggesting putting Halton Hills back into the Halton riding and then, ideally, splitting the riding into two, to carve a separate riding out of Milton, Acton, and that area?

Mr. Julian Reed: Yes, that would be correct.

And note the fact that the 2001 census was out of date by 2002.

[Translation]

The Chair: Are there any further questions?

[English]

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: Just to make sure, you mentioned you would prefer four ridings. Are you actually proposing the creation of an additional riding?

Mr. Julian Reed: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'll just mention what the problem is with that in terms of the likelihood of the boundaries commission accepting the proposal. They have to find and remove a riding from somewhere else, and I think they'd be very reluctant to create that kind of cascade effect at this point in time.

Mr. Julian Reed: They are creating, I understand, some additional ridings.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, but I think they're already in place elsewhere. I can't tell you exactly.

Mr. Julian Reed: An additional riding is created here anyway. The commission's latest proposal takes in Halton Hills at the northern end of the riding I serve, and also a large geographic rural area, including places like Erin, Hillsburgh, Wellington, around the western side of Guelph. It forms a big doughnut there with Puslinch, and so on.

º (1620)

Mr. Scott Reid: Is that Wellington--Halton Hills?

Mr. Julian Reed: Yes.

You see, in the growth area we live in, we're faced with challenges like the enormous demand to vastly improve public transit. That demand doesn't spread into Erin or Puslinch to the same extent at all.

The Chair: This is another one of those occasions when the map is right on the fold.

Mr. Scott Reid: If you go to the next page, to page 102-103, you get the same thing on the same scale. It's still tiny, but you can actually see what he's talking about a little more clearly.

Mr. Julian Reed: It is kind of awkward in the book.

The Chair: So currently there isn't a member for Wellington--Halton Hills?

Mr. Julian Reed: No.

I am the member for Halton Hills and Milton, North Burlington, and North Oakville. Everything is confined within the boundaries of the region.

The Chair: They've actually made this whole new configuration.

Mr. Scott Reid: Who currently represents the areas of Puslinch, Guelph, and Eramosa?

Mr. Julian Reed: Part of it, I believe, is with Murray Calder. Part of it is with Lynn Myers. I don't know whether there's a third member or not.

Mr. Scott Reid: This doughnut-type arrangement, with Guelph as the hole in the doughnut, is not currently the way it works, is it?

Mr. Julian Reed: I don't know.

The Chair: There isn't a doughnut now.

Mr. Scott Reid: There wasn't in the August proposals either, I see.

The Chair: We have the current map. It's called Guelph--Wellington. Puslinch is in Guelph--Wellington. Eramosa is in Guelph--Wellington. Guelph is in Guelph--Wellington.

Mr. Julian Reed: That's Brenda Chamberlain's riding.

The Chair: Yes, then Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey goes up....

Mr. Julian Reed: That's Murray Calder's.

The Chair: Just looking at that north boundary, is there some way to do something other than the doughnut? I guess there's no point in switching. There's no point above the “Ha” in Halton, which would be just below the number 28.... Do you see where I mean?

Mr. Julian Reed: Yes, I see what you're looking at. What are you asking?

The Chair: Is there any point in switching part of that for Halton Hills? That would be the area just east of Puslinch.

Mr. Julian Reed: East of Puslinch, of course, is the town of Milton. In the proposed map, that's the finger that goes up to the top. That's part of the town of Milton.

The Chair: So that wouldn't help. It's just that you could get less of a doughnut effect.

º (1625)

Mr. Julian Reed: It makes for a challenge servicing, as you can well imagine.

The Chair: How far above is Oakville in the current numbers? It says 109,000. What's the provincial average? Is there a northern limit on Oakville we could pump up a little? Is there a natural line across the top of Oakville?

Mr. Julian Reed: I don't know about a number line. There would be a natural geographic line, certainly.

The Chair: That's Highway 5. No, that's Upper Middle Road. So if you included the area right there, that grey box, and made it a straight box, what would happen?

Mr. André Cyr: Is that all of this area bounded by the highway?

The Chair: No, come up to the next box.

Mr. André Cyr: Include it in 32?

The Chair: Yes.

How many people live there? It's to make Oakville a little bigger, because it's urban.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 35,000.

The Chair: That would make her way above. But it would give you your numbers. What would that be on a percentage basis? That would be more than 25%.

Mr. André Cyr: Definitely more. You asked a while ago: Oakville is 110,000 at plus 2%.

The Chair: Okay, we have some hard numbers to crunch.

Mr. Scott Reid: Unfortunately, you've only given one copy to the clerk.

The Chair: Yes, we'll make copies.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'm just wondering, you said you had some numbers. Does it actually provide for going all...?

Mr. Julian Reed: The only one I did the numbers on was the Palmer community, the south end, and the chair has those figures.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay, thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Reed.

Who's our next witness? Ms. Longfield.

[Translation]

She isn't here?

[English]

We can talk about Alberta.

We have to go in camera, which means if you're staff to one of the members at the table, you're allowed to stay.

Here is Ms. Longfield. We'll let you get settled.

What page are our maps on? What's your riding called again?

º (1630)

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Ajax--Whitby--Oshawa.

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, I brought copies of the maps, so I don't have the page.

The Chair: No, we have maps. It looks like page 102, map 3 in the book. Actually, it's map 3 in the southern Ontario piece as well, in the consultation document.

Oh, there's a better one--map 5 in the consultation document.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Madam Chair, I have four pieces of paper with me I'd like to distribute to members of the committee. My apologies, they're only in English. I'm without staff today. Most of them are maps.

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): I don't mind, if it's only maps, but not text, please.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: The text just describes what's on the map.

The Chair: That's okay. Just give out the maps, not the text.

Actually, Monsieur Guimond, page108 has a better map.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm here today to make representation with respect to the proposed riding of Whitby--Oshawa. My concern is with the area of Oshawa attached to Whitby. If you notice the section dipping down at the far east of the riding, it is a rather new section of Oshawa. Speaking with the mayor and regional councillor of Oshawa, the city is very concerned that the newer sections of Oshawa are being removed from old Oshawa. It is trying very hard to establish a sense of community.

When we made representation to the Electoral Boundaries Commission initially, there was a joint presentation on behalf of all of Durham. At that time, the City of Oshawa suggested that there be a section carving into the city of Oshawa, bounded by King Street, Oshawa Creek, and Taunton Road. That portion of Oshawa is the old township of Whitby, or it has been attached to Whitby in the past.

Additionally, the section of Oshawa north of Winchester Road is a good fit, and I would propose that we keep it. I'm suggesting that Oshawa go along King Street to the creek, and north to Rossland Road. So you're going along King Street, east to the creek, and north along the creek—as the City of Oshawa suggested—and across Rossland Road, which is slightly below Taunton Road, to Simcoe Street. You then go north on Simcoe Street. So we're going to go along Highway 2 and along King Street, then north along the creek to Rossland, and from Rossland to Simcoe Street, which is west of Ritson Road, and north to Winchester, and then everything north of Winchester.

Does that make sense?

The Chair: Sorry, what happens at Winchester?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Everything north of Winchester could remain as it is.

º (1635)

The Chair: So it would all be Oshawa?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Yes, it would be Oshawa.

So I'm suggesting replacing this section of Oshawa with a section starting at King Street, going up that way, to make it more contiguous with the city of Whitby. There are natural linkages here; there are only two flow-through, east-west streets, and this part is just not connected at all, except at Rossland and at Winchester. It is very problematic to join up this particular portion of Oshawa or to have any community of interest with Whitby.

So what we're suggesting is more in line with the map you have in front of you. As you can see, the balance is not correct; in here, they have 104,000 for the proposed riding and 121,000 for Oshawa. I'm suggesting that we could pick up additional by going up this way.

The Chair: Ms. Longfield, I notice in the consultation document that they had the beige square reversed at the top.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: If you go back to the first representation the commission made, or the old map....

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. André Cyr: Will you pick up that population?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Yes.

In the first document or map, you're absolutely correct.

The Chair: André, can you give us the population in both of those two squares?

I see that the dark-brown square is the current riding and the beige square is the proposed riding.

Mr. André Cyr: It's 16,200 in the western block, and almost 15,000 in the eastern block. And the quotients are roughly the same, at 36 and 38, plus 6% and plus 5%.

The Chair: Okay. It would be better if we get this conversation on the record.

In the consultation document, they had those two top squares flipped. And they are about the same, at roughly 16,000 and 15,000, but—

Mrs. Judi Longfield: The consultation document is far preferable to the current one, but even the consultation document poses some problems to the city of Oshawa. When part of a large city like Oshawa is being hacked off, I think we should try to please the city of Oshawa as best we can in terms of how they feel their city will best be represented. They feel that moving along King Street to the creek....

I am just wondering if we can do the population figures for that section.

º (1640)

Mr. André Cyr: I'll add this area of 21,000 to your electoral district.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: There's 87,000 and something in Whitby. But what I would do from that 21,000 is to go further up Simcoe Street, continuing to go north....

Mr. André Cyr: So then they'll remove the other areas from your riding south of Winchester.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Exactly. Is that Winchester, perhaps, there? So everything east of Simcoe, south of Winchester?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes. There are roughly 21,000.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: What would be added to the riding here, this section?

Mr. André Cyr: That would be roughly the area, and--

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Which would be the area?

Mr. André Cyr: So 38,000 Whitby--Oshawa; 37,000 Whitby--Oshawa would be at plus 5%, and 38,000 at plus 6%.

Mr. John Wright: Whitby--Oshawa would be what?

The Chair: Is it plus 6%?

Mr. André Cyr: Plus 6% and plus 5% respectively. They're about the same thing, but reversed.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So for that new riding of Whitby--Oshawa as proposed there, what would the population be?

º (1645)

Mr. André Cyr: Whitby--Oshawa would be 112,000, 113,000, and the other one 113,600.

The Chair: Sorry, André, but Whitby--Oshawa is the 5% and Oshawa is the 6%, or the other way around?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, correct.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: It's like 8% there.

Mr. André Cyr: It's 6%.

The Chair: All right.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So 6%, it's riding 37....

Madam Chair, I chatted with Mr. Grose prior to this, and Ivan had no problem with representing any part of Oshawa. He wanted to make certain that both he and I had approximately the same amount. He represented most of it at one time or another. The portion that's now with Whitby has been for the most part a part of Whitby in the old Durham Centre riding, so it's not unfamiliar. That would give the city of Oshawa the most comfort. Their high-growth area, the area they're expected to grow in, is that area south of Winchester that's been added on to the new Oshawa, which is what they wanted to keep with their existing municipality.

The Chair: So they actually like it being a little taller and thinner?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: There's very little population north of Winchester, so to them it's not.... That portion of the north part of Oshawa fits very well with the current Ashburn and Raglan that's currently in the town of Whitby. It's their estate-type place, a lot of rural, some farming. It's the only area in those two areas that has any rural component whatsoever.

The Chair: Any other questions? Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: Your change, I gather, takes things somewhat back towards the way they were under the August proposals. What was the rationale for the Electoral Boundaries Commission shifting?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: They gave none.

Mr. Scott Reid: Was there something in the representations that were being made at the time?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Nothing. It came totally out of left field.

Mr. Scott Reid: And it wasn't the result of some other change being made to other surrounding ridings, or something like that?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I don't think so, because they never had any portion of Oshawa with any other riding but Whitby. So in this particular one it was just how they divided those two municipalities, one with 87,000 and one with 139,000. So they're contained, and it doesn't affect anyone else. You have one that shows the representation that the region of Durham made, and it's the riding that looks like this.

The only reason I'm suggesting this and that I talked to them about it is that Whitby was disproportionately small to the riding of Oshawa, so I talked to them about trying to even up. And this is what they suggested, that Oshawa Creek is a well-defined area, it's well known to the residents of both communities, and it's not going to pose a problem.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, in the end it all boils down to how you slice up that rectangle made up by Whitby and Oshawa together.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Exactly. It has no effect on any other riding. The transportation linkages are excellent in that portion. Why they decided to throw in that southeast jog, I have absolutely no idea; it just makes absolutely no sense in terms of transportation or community of interest.

Mr. Scott Reid: Thank you.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Longfield.

Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's my pleasure to be here.

I just had some minor surgery, so I'm having difficulty reading. Actually I have my sister's glasses, as I'm not going to get my glasses until Friday. Anyway, I'll do the best I can under the circumstances.

The Chair: We're glad to have you with us.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Over the last number of years, I think it's a global phenomenon that there's an out-migration from rural ridings, and rural ridings are losing their representation. In rural ridings, a member of Parliament is actually a major economic development officer.

The elections commission didn't tell me at the time that I should have given them alternatives, and they claim the one fault they had with me was that I didn't give them alternatives. So what I've done is I've given the committee four different alternatives. The one I think most people would prefer is the first one. It does not disrupt most of my colleagues. Mr. Calder is aware that Southgate is the area the council asked to be in there. The warden and the council of Bruce has asked that Walkerton remain in the riding.

Three years ago there was a tragic thing that happened in Walkerton. Seven people died and about 2,500 people were affected by E.coli. The community has been reeling. And I'm not saying that I'm the best thing since sliced bread, but I've been working extremely hard with them, and their fortunes are actually improving.

I'll give you some information here, and you can see some newspaper publications where they're saying they're being left out, things are not working. I also brought--and I don't know if I have enough copies here--a letter that shows an idea I gave to the community. For the French persons here, we should try to get some interpretation, because I didn't get it all done for that major letter. Basically what you're looking at there is something that came out from a local paper saying that Walkerton feels left out, they're having problems, a lot of things are not happening.

If you look at most of the things that are happening in Walkerton you'll find my footprint there. I do work very closely with my provincial colleague, Mr. Murdoch. When it was the water institute they were having, believe it or not, I was clipping the ribbon with the provincial minister. She asked me. There wasn't one federal dollar there, but I was there on the ground with them, helping them with the idea.

I gave them ideas about businesses as well. The letters I'm giving to you show what I think was the second year they had this awards ceremony in which they were promoting businesses and enterprises to get the place going. And you'll see, for instance, that my wife actually represented me. In this particular case, because I was going to be in Ottawa, they asked me if my wife could be there. And if you were to phone the chair of that committee you'd find that was totally my idea.

So I don't want to abandon Walkerton right now, simply because I think I've been very helpful in a way that is in keeping with what I've done in Owen Sound. I used to be the mayor of the city of Owen Sound. I have 19 years of municipal experience. And if you look at the time I was in Owen Sound, you'll find that I travelled and I did economic activity, and so on and so forth. So community of interest is very important.

I only have five minutes, so I won't go on. I'll leave it to questions. But you'll find that Walkerton has a community of interest with Hanover, with Owen Sound. They have a regional hospital that they have cross-pollination with in those communities. There are people who actually live and have places in Chesley, or in Durham, and things like that.

Policing is another thing. Their name brand is all going to be changed. Even the name of the riding, if you change it, as is proposed, is going to be damaging. I personally think this is the best option for the town of Walkerton and that community. Perhaps down the road they could make another shift.

I've given some other ideas, but that's the main one I'd like to promote as option number one.

So those are my comments, Madam Chair. If you have questions, I'll be glad to respond.

º (1650)

The Chair: Just to be clear, Walkerton is just there near Hanover, so you're suggesting keeping South Bruce, or Brockton, or both in the riding. And you're suggesting what with Southgate and Grey Highlands?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Grey Highlands is in the next three options. I'm not asking for Grey Highlands, because it would affect my colleague over in Simcoe--Grey, Mr. Bonwick.

º (1655)

The Chair: Just to be clear, you're suggesting picking up Brockton and South Bruce.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Just keeping what I have and adding Southgate. Southgate comes from Mr. Calder, but Mr. Calder is aware of that. He has signed the papers that you have, and it's fine with him. If the thing changes, he's going to living in my riding, but it's fine with him. He has an orientation because of the way his riding was so spread out, and we've talked about that.

The Chair: So Saugeen Shores and Kincardine would remain in Mr. Steckle's riding. And to get Walkerton, do you need both Brockton and South Bruce?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: We were just trying to keep the numbers to the 104,000 or 102,000, because that's what we're trying to look at there.

The Chair: Right now you're under, so you wouldn't be giving up anything.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: No, but I would be gaining Southgate. No, Southgate belongs to Mr. Calder, and they've asked to be in the riding.

The Chair: Mr. Jackson, the proposal in the book is that you get Southgate--

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Right.

The Chair: --and you're saying you'd also like to pick up South Bruce and Brockton. Is that correct?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: No. Brockton is in right now, and so is--

The Chair: No.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Oh, in this proposal?

When I say it's in right now, I'm saying the proposal is my present constituency plus Southgate. I'm sorry about that confusion.

The Chair: Okay. That was the problem I was having.

You will have Grey Highlands as well. Do you want to get rid of Grey Highlands or keep that?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: No. I had Grey Highlands before, and then they gave it to Mr. Bonwick. But with regard to Markdale and Flesherton, people come to my office anyway. I even get people from Southampton.

The Chair: But just a second. Deal with Grey Highlands first. It is proposed that Grey Highlands be added to your constituency.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Yes, it is.

The Chair: And you're happy with that?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I don't have a problem with that.

The Chair: So could we get the numbers on what happens if we add Brockton and South Bruce to the riding, that dark blue? He's actually already minus five, or minus 4.79.

Mr. André Cyr: South Bruce is the yellow area, which crosses the current electoral district boundary because of amalgamations, and it's the same thing with Brockton.

The Chair: Not according to this map.

Mr. André Cyr: I'll just add the former townships of Carrick and Brant.

The Chair: Just add the new little bit. It's just those two blue ones, isn't it?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes. That's 11,600.

The Chair: Eleven thousand. That would make Mr. Jackson's riding how much above?

Mr. André Cyr: It's currently at minus 5%, 102,000. It would be plus 6%, 114,000.

The Chair: Then Huron--Bruce loses a chunk--

Mr. André Cyr: Minus 14%.

The Chair: Minus 14%, although Huron--Bruce is a very long riding.

What do you think about that, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I don't mind if my numbers are high. I just don't want to abandon Walkerton at this particular time. I have a large riding to start with, so the numbers are not a big problem for me. It's just that I feel that I'm abandoning them.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: One of the things I observed from reading the report of the boundaries commission is that they specifically mention, with regard to the riding of Renfrew--Nipissing--Pembroke, that they have allowed the population to be about 96,000, which is below the average for Ontario, because they say although it's not in northern Ontario, it's north-ish and it's quite large. But it's still a larger population than Huron--Bruce would have, and I'm inclined to think the commission would be unlikely to accept Huron--Bruce going as low as 93,000.

Do any of your other four options not change the proportions to quite as large an extent?

» (1700)

The Chair: Is there a way, Mr. Jackson, to pick up the city of Walkerton without picking up all of South Bruce and Brockton?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I guess it's messy no matter which way you do it. I'm sure there is, Madam Chair, yes.

Once you start moving boundaries around, then it.... Remember when you have a city area and you put services in, there's always a neighbour next door you could extend the services to and you keep moving it out.

I'm at the mercy of the committee as to how you would want.... You've seen some of these configurations. You probably have a better option, a wider way of looking at it than I do. I try to do it as best I can to try to be fair to my neighbours and my colleagues and not to affect them as much.

The riding of Bruce—Grey is one of the few ridings, actually, where the numbers went up during this census, the last census, so I'm not too sure why it has been fiddled with by that much, but it has been.

The Chair: The challenge we have is that apparently when the commission was making its decisions, I gather, Brockton and South Bruce used to be four municipalities, and they're now two municipalities or there's some kind of amalgamation that's gone on over there.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Yes.

The Chair: Apparently that's why they used the lines they did. We're open to some other suggestion. It's just that they were trying to reflect some new amalgamations that have taken place.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Well, just leave Brockton in and give my colleague South Bruce. I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem.

The Chair: Brockton would cover the Walkerton problem. Is that correct?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Yes, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Okay. André, can you cut those numbers?

Would it be the current Brockton or the old Brockton?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I don't have the maps here before me. It would probably be once it includes the town of Walkerton.... Is Mildmay in Brockton as well, or not? It's in South Bruce.

Mr. André Cyr: Madam Chair, the numbers are up.

The Chair: The numbers are up. It would be minus 12% in Huron—Bruce and just plus 4% in Grey—Bruce—Owen Sound.

Does anybody else have any questions?

Mr. Scott Reid: I guess I'm surprised the numbers changed so little. Is South Bruce very, very rural?

The Chair: Oh, it's all pretty rural.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Yes, mostly rural, except the towns like Hanover and Walkerton and Owen Sound and Meaford and Wiarton, where you get chunks of population.

» (1705)

The Chair: Mr. Jackson, what if we grabbed Saugeen, the next county up, and put it in Bruce? Are there many people who live there?

Mr. André Cyr: There are 677.

The Chair: Oh.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Yes, that's just the reserve.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 6,000 in South Bruce.

The Chair: How many people in Arran-Elderslie?

Mr. André Cyr: In Arran-Elderslie there are 6,500, in South Bruce 6,000, and in Brockton, which includes Walkerton, 10,000.

The Chair: That's the box that's the problem.

Is there some highway or anything that we could pick that would be different?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: There's Highway 21 and Highway--

The Chair: No, it's way over from Highway 21.

Could we go up and grab Walkerton, and just stay on Regional Road 19? Pull Walkerton into.... Is that logical or not? That's for you, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I don't have any problems with that. As I said before, there are still going to be spillovers. In this area you're working in, the people work together anyway. I think we're always going to have that overlap. Where it reaches over, we'll just have to continue the work, although the province has split them up a little bit.

In these economic pockets, all of these people try to organize themselves. It's very difficult sometimes for them to detach, particularly when they're making progress.

The Chair: Mr. Jackson, you told us that the most important thing is Walkerton. In order to keep the ridings roughly the right size, especially since they're both rural, is there a way...? You could take Regional Road 19 instead. Does that make sense to people? If you live in Pinkerton, are you going to get too upset that you're not attached to the rest of Brockton?

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I don't think so. I know where Pinkerton is. It's just outside of Chesley. That's not a problem.

The Chair: Does anybody have any other questions? Mr. Reid? Mr. Proulx?

Thank you very much, Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: Thanks, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Mr. Serré is on page.... What's the easiest page to look at? Map 1 is the easiest.

Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to state my views on electoral boundary change.

I will start with the premise that the system is fundamentally flawed and fundamentally unfair. We get into a situation where we have four ridings in P.E.I. with an average of about 35,000 or 37,000 people. At that rate, in northern Ontario we would have some 22 members of Parliament, and now we will be down to 10.

The system and the process are even more flawed in this case. When the commission came to northern Ontario, they had only three hearings, which meant people had to travel 400 to 500 kilometres to attend one of those hearings.

They came up with some proposals. They stated at the upstart they would not derogate from the 25% provincial quotient and they would take into consideration the community of interest. They did exactly the opposite. We have a situation where, in Bob Nault's riding--I don't know if you've heard from him yet--it would be 42% of the provincial quotient, which is very high.

Basically, most members of Parliament in Ontario are very displeased with the process and the results. The commission then turned around and made some drastic changes, and I mean drastic. The original proposal was for the elimination of the riding of Nickel Belt. The last recommendation is for the elimination of Timiskaming--Cochrane. At that time, not too many people in Timiskaming--Cochrane filed objections. Of course, the riding was not disappearing, and it was very far from where they had the hearings, which was North Bay, Sudbury, and Timmins.

Since the last proposal came out, Madam Chair.... I have this file here. I don't know if it's possible for the committee clerk to photocopy it for the committee. I have every single municipality in the riding passing resolutions opposing the changes. I have every group you can think of, from farmers groups to co-ops to churches to ACFO, French groups, etc. The opposition to the changes is almost unanimous.

The last proposed change would basically cut everybody from the traditional community of interest. I'll give you some examples.

There are about 70 communities in my riding, all rural, the biggest being Kirkland Lake, at 8,000. I have the highest population of francophones in northern Ontario and the second-largest in Ontario, at 42%. My riding right now borders Quebec and we have a strong community of interest with the Quebec people. As a matter of fact, we started a group called Entre amis, Between Friends, which does cultural, economic, and social exchanges.

The proposed boundary would cut all of what they call the Clay Belt, which is Timiskaming proper. The riding right now goes to Cochrane and to West Nipissing and Sudbury East. I touch basically all the big centres in northern Ontario. So it would cut the Clay Belt in two, which means the Timiskaming traditional culture would be cut in half and they would be cut off from West Nipissing, which is one of the only other farming centres in Ontario.

As a matter of fact, in Timiskaming--Cochrane, if you add up those parts of Sudbury and Nipissing that are in my riding, I have 63% of all farmland in northern Ontario. They would cut that group into three different groups. They would cut ACFO, the Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario, in half. You would find yourself with people in the same francophone church separated, with people in the only French high school in the area separated. It would be a total division of every single community of interest or economic tie you can imagine. I think it would be the worst scenario we could see.

I have a proposition for the committee. The commission stated it would not go under the 25% quotient, and then they did exactly that at 42%. I don't know if he can bring us the numbers, but I believe if you retain the 11 existing Ontario ridings--you would redivide a little bit, with Sudbury and Nipissing--you could keep 11 ridings at about 72%, 73%, which is a little bit more than the 25% allowed, but still within the prerogative of the commission to do that.

Why would northern Ontario be required to have 90,000 people in a riding when Saskatchewan has only 63,000? And as mentioned by the previous speaker, Mr. Jackson, rural Canada is losing representation.

» (1710)

I'd like you to understand, those of you who come from bigger centres, that when you have 70 communities, about 35 of which are organized, you have 35 town councils to deal with; you have 28 legions; you have about 500 service clubs. On any given weekend, you have about 50 events that require you to be there. If the commission takes another riding out of northern Ontario, it's just plain impossible to do a good job as a member of Parliament.

I don't know what the power of the committee is. I don't know what the power of Parliament is, and whether it requires an act of Parliament that is recommended by the committee, but I think the system is basically flawed and unfair.

That's what I want the committee to recommend to the commission. If at the end of the day the commission finds it's totally impossible and they still want to eliminate a riding, which is opposed by every citizen of northern Ontario, at least have the commission do some further hearings in northern Ontario. The changes they are proposing now are totally different from what they proposed earlier. If you take the first proposal and then the second, you'll see they're like night and day.

» (1715)

The Chair: We have both sets right in front of us.

Mr. Benoît Serré: So you understand the point. I'd like the committee also, when you make your recommendation for northern Ontario, to look at the whole picture, at what I've just said. Other ridings in Ontario have other members of Parliament who are in exactly the same position as I am in terms of community interests. The process and the recommendation are basically flawed for all of northern Ontario. I would like the committee to look at it from a northern Ontario perspective.

[Translation]

It is not a case of simply focusing on an individual riding, be it Timiskaming—Cochrane or Nipissing. We have to take into consideration all of northern Ontario and recommend that the 11 ridings in the region remain unchanged.

The Chair: Where is Timiskaming—Cochrane on the map?

Mr. André Cyr: Timiskaming—Cochrane starts at the brown line, from 52, and continues north to this line here. It has been split into three ridings, which are shown in blue, mauve, and pale green.

The Chair: Now we have Timmins—James Bay, Nickel Belt and Nipissing.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: Which riding do you live in?

Mr. Benoît Serré: I live near Sudbury, in a little village called Markstay.

The Chair: Is that in Nickel Belt at the moment?

Mr. Benoît Serré: It is in Timiskaming—Cochrane at the moment, but with the new delineation it would be in Nickel Belt. It is just next to Sudbury, a little to the northeast.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

Yes?

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Madam Chair, I don't have the old map. Could we ask the witness just to give us the main...?

The Chair: The colours indicate.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but we don't have the colours in our books. I just want some names—like Cochrane, Iroquois Falls, Timmins, Kirkland Lake.

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Serré: Let me give you an overview of the current riding. It is about 500 kilometres long, from north to south. You would not be able to drive every road in the riding in a week. It is sparsely populated. It starts at French River and includes Noëlville, Alban, St. Charles, etc. It includes all of West-Nipissing and what we call the Sudbury-East area, in other words, Hagar, Markstay, Warren, etc. To the north, it takes in small sparsely populated villages such as Tilden Lake, Temagami, the Temagami First Nation, and the area that we call Tri-Town. It goes along the Quebec border and all the way up to 100 km north of Cochrane, where there are some other first nations.

The Chair: Is that where it ends?

Mr. Benoît Serré: No, that is as far as it goes to the northwest, but it stretches further north, to an area where there are some first nations reserves. Very few people live where.

At the moment, my riding goes to the North Bay border. It almost goes as far as Sudbury and Timmins.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is Iroquois Falls in—?

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Serré: Yes, Iroquois Falls and Holtyre.

[English]

The Chair: What about Smooth Rock Falls?

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Serré: No, that's in Timmins—James Bay.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Guimond.

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Serré, as you are probably aware, the committee cannot ask the commission to meet again and hold new hearings. If you have representations to make, go ahead.

Mr. Benoît Serré: I have already done so.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Under the legislation which gave rise to this redefining of electoral districts, we submit our report and the Ontario commission has 30 days to let the subcommittee know if they agree with our recommendations. You are asking us to do something for which our mandate does not provide. Were you aware of that?

Mr. Benoît Serré: Sort of, but I thought that, in light of the radical changes that have been made, a recommendation from the committee... The commission has the right to decide what to do, but I think that the committee has the right to make suggestions to the commission. I know that you have no authority to order the commission to do something, but you can make suggestions.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes. In any case, we heard from Mr. Wood, from Nipissing, who spoke out against the losses that rural Ontario will incur. We are going through the same thing in some regions of Quebec: urban centre are expanding at the expense of the regions which, in turn, are no longer heard.

What was the percentage in your riding? We don't have a comparative chart. There is a difference of more than 25 per cent in your new riding. You seem to be saying that 72 or 73 per cent is so close...

Mr. Benoît Serré: The difference in my current riding is less than 25 per cent. My riding is the only one in northern Ontario where the difference is less than 25 per cent. I don't have the exact figures, but Timiskaming—Cochrane was about 68 per cent.

» (1720)

Mr. Michel Guimond: So, there was a 32 per cent reduction.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Approximately, yes. The commission said that that was not allowed, however, they created a 42 per cent reduction in Kenora. The commission should include more in Kenora, Mr. Nault's riding. Kenora would be happy to keep Rainy River. The commission ought to redo the boundaries so that all the ridings are at 27 or 28 per cent. That would allow us to keep our 11 ridings which would be better for representation.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Is it true that, under the current proposal, Kenora would be reduced by 42 per cent?

Mr. Benoît Serré: Yes.

Mr. André Cyr: The commission studied some exceptional circumstances in this riding.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Even though the boundaries have been redefined, the riding sits at minus 42 per cent.

The Chair: Currently, in northern Ontario, we have 30 per cent less in Algoma—Manitoulin, 26 per cent less in Kenora, 26 per cent in Sudbury, 29 per cent less in Thunder Bay—Atikokan, 30 per cent less in Thunder Bay—Superior-North, 35 per cent less in Timiskaming—Cochrane and 33 per cent less in Timmins—James Bay.

Mr. Benoît Serré: That is how it stands at the moment.

The Chair: Yes. However, Timmins—James Bay covers an area of 250,000 square kilometres. That is a little different from Burlington.

Mr. Benoît Serré: That is why the system is unfair.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Allow me to add something: Franco-Ontarians in the north of the province will lose a representative.

The Chair: Not only Franco-Ontarians, but English-speaking Ontarians in the north of Ontario as well.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but Franco-Ontarians in the north of Ontario, amongst others, are losing a representative. That is outrageous.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Madam Chair, I would like to underscore the representations that have been made to me not only in my riding, but all across northern Ontario. The proposed changes have not only raised hackles in Timiskaming—Cochrane, but all across northern Ontario. People are very angry and are ready to act.

I think that, in spite of the size of this document, it is important that the committee and the commission read the objections that have been raised. I do not think that there is a single group that has not sent something. I have petitions from thousands of people. This is a very serious problem.

If it were a small village with 2000 or 3,000 residents, and people were unhappy because so and so's father-in-law lives there, or because he has more family there, that would be a different kettle of fish. But here we are talking about getting rid of a riding which has been home to a community of interests for 125 years, a community of French-speaking farmers.

You are going to separate Cochrane, Timiskaming and West Nipissing, an area which is home to virtually all of northern Ontario's farmers. You are going to separate all the French speakers. What the commission has done is very serious, and I do not understand why there has been a total turnaround in the time between the first and the second stage.

» (1725)

The Chair: Yes, it is difficult.

Yvon Godin, go ahead.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I do not really know who I should put my question to. When the boundaries were first decided, there were 11 members of Parliament, and now there will be 10. Is that right?

Mr. Benoît Serré: We must not forger that we also lost one during the last redistribution. We had 12, then 11, and now we will drop to 10.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I agree, but was that done in order to benefit southern Ontario? Did we want to maintain the same number of seats for the southern part of the province? Is that why they went to get some from northern Ontario?

Mr. Benoît Serré: We add four more to the southern part of the province and remove one from the north. So Ontario ends up with three more seats but all in the large centres.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I agree when you say that the commissions cannot relate to individual situations. We had the same problem. We were at 14 per cent and they said that there were too many of us. So they included a francophone group in an anglophone riding. That makes no sense. We only had 14 per cent. In Ontario, the rate can be as high as 43 per cent, and that seems to make no difference, because they want to eliminate...

Mr. Benoît Serré: The committee should be aware of another important statistic: that is that northern Ontario, which represents only 8 per cent of the population of that province, that is, 830,000 people, represents 82 per cent of the total area covered by Ontario.

I know it is not easy. I heard Liberal members from Toronto say that our funding should be cut because we only represent 75,000 constituents while they represent 230,000. But they can walk across their riding in an hour while it would take me over a month to cross mine by car.

I invited Paul Martin to come to my riding. He drove from North Bay to Lisgar, and told me that I had a big riding and that it made no sense, that he had been driving for two and one half hours. I responded that he had not even covered one third of my riding and that it took me seven hours to travel from one end of the riding to the other. When I visit all of these small municipalities that are 40 kilometres one way or 100 miles the other way, it takes me at least a month to visit the entire area.

The commission representatives are city people and we must do more than simple try to explain things to them. We should take them on site. But not by plane, since the flight between Toronto and North Bay or Toronto and Cochrane is relatively short. We should drive them from village to village. Only then will they be able to see this problem in a different light.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

[Translation]

Mr. Scott Reid: There are two large cities in northern Ontario, Thunder Bay and Sudbury. I see that the riding that is proposed for Sudbury has a smaller population than the provincial quotient, but it is not a riding that covers a large geographic area. If we were to create two ridings with a higher population in northern Ontario's two large urban regions, then we could perhaps have a more equitable distribution by creating more ridings in the rural areas of that province.

» (1730)

Mr. Benoît Serré: That argument keeps coming back. For example, the member from Sudbury must deal with one city council, one chamber of commerce, and so on, while in Toronto, there are 35 or 40 members who deal with one city council.

In Timiskaming—Cochrane, there is one member for 35 city councils. There are 70 communities, but many of them are not organized. There have been mergers which result in fewer councils, but the situation remains the same. There are 28 legions, and on November 11, at 11 a.m., one can only be in one place.

The commission and the committee must understand that some things are different. Those people are not second-class citizens. They have the same rights as everyone else to be represented in Ottawa and they are also entitled to have their member of Parliament attend their council meeting from time to time. They have a right to meet with their member in their own region once in a while. That is what the commission has failed to understand, and that does not only apply to northern Ontario.

The situation exists elsewhere as well, but as far as I am concerned, the problem is worse for the rural communities in Ontario, because of the provincial quotient. So even if each northern Ontario riding represented 30 per cent of the provincial quotient, the number of constituents would be much greater per riding than it would be in Saskatchewan. That is unfair.

I know that according to the Constitution, Prince Edward Island is guaranteed four members and four senators. Nonetheless, four members for 130,000 people is fundamentally unfair.

Mr. Scott Reid: But we can't transfer a riding from Prince Edward Island to Ontario. As far as I am concerned, my problem is that from a geographic and demographic point of view, my riding is larger than Prince Edward Island.

Mr. Yvon Godin: There are more people living in the city of Toronto than in four or five Canadian provinces; that's just the way it is in Canada. We can do nothing about it; we may as well adapt.

Mr. Benoît Serré: We must understand that the commission has this prerogative, because it was done in Kenora. That is my argument. At this point in time there are extraordinary measures being applied in Ontario. We are loosing our population, our jobs, and all the rest. Why? Because we are no longer being represented. People are leaving.

The Chair: I have a suggestion for you, Mr. Serré.

[English]

Mr. Benoît Serré: Do you want to transfer some people from Burlington?

The Chair: No, I like the fact that I can go from one side to the other in half an hour.

If we are going to make some recommendations for changing the north, if we're going to suggest that there should be a different provincial quotient or something—most of the northern seats are pretty close, they're at 22,000, or 21,000—if we were going to suggest something different, can you give us something different? Can you take that geographic area and give us the ten or the eleven new ridings, whichever you're proposing?

» (1735)

Mr. Benoît Serré: I think it would require.... Do you mean, if we retained eleven ridings?

The Chair: Ten would be better, but maybe you could give us both proposals. Ten is more realistic, of course, but if there were some other way to draw this that would be fairer to you and all the other members, and if you have that proposal, we can entertain it. I think we have a couple more of the members coming in.

Our challenge is that the people where the other new seats are coming in, in southern Ontario, are asking what happened to their voice. We're way over what it is in New Brunswick or P.E.I. or anywhere else. We're on the wrong side of 25% in some of the urban areas, although I don't think anyone's over that. I think I saw 19% on one of them, the highest positive quotient one. Well, maybe it was not quite that high.

If there's a way for you to demonstrate a different way to divide the north that's more representative, we'd be happy to hear it.

Mr. Benoît Serré: If we were to remain at eleven ridings, that's my preferred option, and I think the preferred option of all of northern Ontario. I think it's the fair and logical option. I think that if the commission has the prerogative to do that, it would require some very, very minor changes to the existing boundaries, so that everybody is not at 42%, as Bob Nault's going to be now, but at maybe 28% or 30%.

In the event that the commission definitely doesn't want to entertain that and says we have to go to ten ridings, give us some arguments there. I think the arguments would be to at least take into consideration the community of interest of francophones and that farming community. Definitely that part from Cochrane to West Nipissing has to remain together because that's where you get all your farmers, or the vast majority in Ontario. That's where you get the vast majority of your francophone population. That's where you get the community of interest with Quebec, etc.—all the arguments I made before.

Maybe add on to that a little bit in the Sudbury area because you don't want to go north again, because that would be a riding, like even more communities. You have to maybe add a little bit of population in the south, which would mean Alban, which is now in Nickel Belt, and possibly part of Coniston, or just on the edge of Sudbury.

The Chair: Mr. Wright.

Mr. John Wright: Sorry, were you talking about taking it down into the valley, into Blizzard Valley, that far south?

Mr. Benoît Serré: I don't think it would require taking as many as that. To meet the 25% it would probably require maybe Coniston, maybe Capreol or Hanmer or part of that. But if you include Alban, which is in Nickel Belt now, I don't know the numbers there, but it would require a little more than that, probably Coniston. It is the closest, I would say, to Markstay right now, which is already in the riding.

The Chair: If you have even some rough lines to draw, we can certainly work on that. But if you have some suggestions, we'd be happy to see those. You can submit them back to this committee before next week, if you would like.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Okay. I'll have to work that out with my colleagues, of course, because everybody's in the same situation.

The Chair: It's always better.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Just philosophically going back to eleven ridings as opposed to the ten that have been proposed, that's quite a quantum leap. If you go and draw the boundaries at eleven, then your minus 20% and minus 21% is going to become greater, much greater, because now you've taken that population and divided by eleven instead of ten. That goes against the--

The Chair: Somehow he'd come up with a map on ten.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, now that's why I'm going where I'm going, because I heard Mr. Serré say that it should be eleven. I think his proposal will be eleven. But what we're saying here is that it flies in the face of what's trying to be achieved here in Ontario, particularly with the new seats. Can you draw those lines on ten boundaries as opposed to eleven? That's the question I'm asking you. If you're going out at eleven, I think we all have some difficulties with that.

Mr. Benoît Serré: I certainly can, but again I want to come back to my point. The commission stated very firmly that they would not derogate from the 25%. Then they go to 44% or 43% in Kenora. If they want to maintain that same logic, instead of going that much overboard under so-called extraordinary circumstances, why not reduce that 42% to 30%, or 29% or 28%, and divide the rest with the others? It's the same logic.

The Chair: It's not extraordinary, then. It's times ten.

Mr. Benoît Serré: It's just a little more and the extraordinary would be the size of all the ridings and the number of communities.

The Chair: Perhaps our opportunity for the next round is to suggest a different configuration on the ten, and on the next round suggest there be a northern provincial quotient that's different from the urban southern quotient, because it clearly is different. They're at 30% and 35%, if we use the current boundaries. It's not going to work. It's not extraordinary to have eleven extraordinaries—one is extraordinary—unless there's a new quotient that's designed in the law for the north and the rural.

» (1740)

Mr. Scott Reid: Madam Chair, I still think that you can.... The law says very large geographic constituencies or northern. It seems to me that.... Again I mention Sudbury, Thunder Bay, and I forgot to mention Sault Ste. Marie—these are really cities that are large enough to have a riding on their own with a larger population. They don't have to be physically large ridings. That would then allow you to go under-quotient to a greater degree with other areas, and I think solve some of the other problems that are arising. I think perhaps suggesting that as another philosophical approach might have some merit.

I know in the first version of the report, Sault Ste-Marie was a fairly small concentrated riding. That's the August report. I think the possibility exists there to try to accommodate the north as a whole.

The Chair: But it still had ten seats.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, I realize that, but I think within that you'd be getting a greater consideration for the kinds of problems Mr. Serré's pointing to of having large, large numbers of small municipalities widely spread.

The Chair: If you want to suggest that the urban centres become smaller geographically, we'll let you come up with what you think is most appropriate.

Mr. Benoît Serré: I think it has some merit, but I don't quite understand. Sudbury is already very close to the 25%.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, it's quite a bit underneath. You could add a little bit of territory around it, it seems to me. I might be wrong in this.

Mr. Benoît Serré: That would not help the population quotient of the other riding--

The Chair: Sudbury's minus 16.9%.

Mr. Benoît Serré: You mean take some out of Sudbury.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, let's say you were to throw more territory from the immediately surrounding area into Sudbury--would that not have the effect of raising it to the provincial quotient, thereby allowing you to have some of the other ridings--

Mr. Benoît Serré: But it would reduce the other riding even more. Instead of being 30%, it would be 40%.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, but what I'm saying is instead of having just one riding, Kenora, be substantially under, you'd have the capacity to have several ridings be more substantially under the provincial quotient--some of the larger geographic ones, such as Timmins, James Bay, the area you're representing, which has been sliced up, and so on.

The Chair: The only challenge with that, Mr. Reid, is then Mr. Serré would end up with even more communities, rather than fewer. His riding would end up getting geographically larger. If you add more territory to Sudbury, you're going to end up making him go farther.

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, to raise the quotient. You're not adding much territory to Sudbury or Thunder Bay. I'm not sure this actually works. I don't know how much hinterland there is around it that you can put in before it starts...it might be that you've used up all the urban area. I don't know; I'm just thinking of it as a possibility.

The Chair: So why don't we ask Mr. Serré to come up with a map for the ten.

Mr. Benoît Serré: The problem with that, Madam Chair--and this is why I've asked the committee to look at it from a non-Ontario perspective--I can go and draw my own lines that would suit my riding, but I think there are other ridings that would be affected. I think it would have to be done with all eleven northern Ontario MPs, and nobody will want to lose his riding. If we go down to ten, somebody is going to lose a riding, right?

The Chair: But, Mr. Serré, we think we're pretty clear they're not going to be able to put in.... The legislation was passed about how many new seats are going to be in the province of Ontario. Without proposing a domino effect throughout the entire province by virtue of keeping eleven in the north.... I just can't imagine we're going to get that far. But if, in the ten, you would like to suggest there are some that could be more dense around Sudbury and then more off the quotient in other areas that make sense, in your riding particularly....

Maybe you don't want to deal with the rest of it. Maybe you just want to tell us, “Let my riding be this shape. It will be minus 35%, and this is the way it should be”, and we can work on the justification. If you can get the other ten to agree, great, but we need something concrete to go back to them with.

We could support an argument around this table, I'm sure, for why it should be off more than 25%. I think most of us could do that.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Take Kenora, for example, which is at 43 per cent. We could take part of the population from your riding. That would reduce the gap and increase the number of constituents.

» (1745)

[English]

The Chair: Not necessarily, because they're so far apart, Mr. Godin.

All I'm saying is if Mr. Serré wants to propose a different configuration for his riding that would make more sense for the communities, but it would mean Timmins--James Bay would be way off the quotient, fine. Whatever he's proposing that makes more sense for his riding, let him tell us exactly what that is geographically, and then we'll worry about the quotients and the numbers. If we can justify it at minus 42%, we can justify it in his area, as well. Right?

Mr. Benoît Serré: You need that within the week, right?

The Chair: By Monday would be great.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What do you want to give back?

Mr. Benoît Serré: I don't want to give anything back. I don't get the question.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You can lose some population, either to Nipissing or to Kenora, I guess. I missed your presentation, Benoît. I'm sorry.

The Chair: Don't make him do that publicly. Let him figure it out first.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You're right.

Figure it out. But that's a good direction--to give some back.

The Chair: Trash that town--I don't need it any more. Don't go there.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Reduce your quotient and everybody can be happy.

The Chair: Monsieur Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: For the record, though, I think in the future, when they decide to put a commission together, they should look at the province and have representation for the province, not just one corner of it. I think that's the big problem.

That's what happened in New Brunswick. They took everybody from the south and they forgot--or they didn't do it--to put in somebody from the north. And they don't understand what's happening in the north.

The same is happening with you.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Sometimes they don't forget; they do it on purpose.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Well, I agree they did it on purpose. I'll go on record with that.

The Chair: It's not just a northern problem. In the area into Niagara Falls, they were very angry about the changes. It's not just northern; it's densing in toward Toronto, no matter which way you cut it, and they're getting whacked. Their quotients are way off, too high.

We lost a seat in Niagara. That's hardly that rural, and they're asking, where is the justification for that?

It's population shifts, and it's going to continue to happen. But maybe they need to find some more leeway, and we could look at changing the mandate or adding some things to our report.

Mr. Scott Reid: It's the new electoral formula they designed in 1985--

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: --which has had the effect of ensuring that as Ontario grows, it becomes progressively more and more under-represented. It should not have 106 members under the new--

The Chair: It should be bigger.

Mr. Scott Reid: It should be much higher. It should be 112, or something of that nature, in my opinion.

The Chair: The west might not go for that.

Mr. Scott Reid: Actually, Alberta and British Columbia are also being systemically and increasingly under-represented. It's a very bad formula that we have.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Serré, you have your work cut out for you. Thank you very much.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Colleagues, can I get us to sign off on the Alberta report? We can go in camera.

Mr. Benoît Serré: On all the opposition from the grassroots and the town councils and--

The Chair: Do you want to give that to the clerk?

Mr. Benoît Serré: Okay.

[Proceedings continue in camera]