SELE Committee Meeting

Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.

For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.

If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.

Previous day publication Next day publication

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, June 10, 2003

0945

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.)

0950

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

0955

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

1000

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

1005

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Guy St-Julien

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Guy St-Julien

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.)

1010

1015

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1020

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

1025

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

1030

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Mark Assad

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ)

1035

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

1040

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

1045

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

1050

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Fournier

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 019

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, June 10, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0945)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I'll call this meeting to order. We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment.

The first witness this morning is Guy St-Julien from Abitibi--Baie-James--Nunavik.

[Translation]

Mr. St-Julien, you have a few minutes to make your opening statement, and then we will open it up for questions.

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Further to the proposals and final report submitted by the Commission, I have provided you with a document in English and French that explains our position. The first point is my proposal that Nunavik be called Eeyou—Baie-James—Nunavik, as suggested in the brief submitted by the Grand Chief, on November 7, in Gatineau, when he said:

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate our recommendations to the Commission regarding the proposal for the electoral district of Nunavik. We insist that the Cree community of Oujé-Bougoumou be included in the electoral district which includes the eight other Cree communities.

The Cree community of Oujé-Bougoumou is 32 kilometers from Chibougamau and 16 kilometers from Chapais, which is part of the Baie-James Municipality, which includes the eight other Cree communities.

With respect to Oujé-Bougoumou, you can see the current boundaries of the riding on the map here. You have Mistassini, Oujé-Bougoumou, Chapais, Chibougamau, and the Municipality of Baie-James. They are located 244 kilometers from Roberval, 223 kilometers from Saint-Félicien, and 271 kilometers from Métabetchouan in the electoral district of Roberval (Lac-Saint-Jean), as proposed in the report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec on pages 43 and 53, Map 1.

The Grand Chief also said:

We are asking that the electoral district be called Nunavik-Eeyou. In Cree, the word Eeyou means the people.

In my second point, I propose that the City of Amos and the surrounding area be included in the electoral district of Baie-James—Nunavik, as indicated in my brief submitted on December 12, 2002 in Rouyn-Noranda, in other words, the Regional County Municipality (RCM) of Abitibi. No one from the Amos area presented a brief. They only attended and cooperated with the CRDAT to try and oppose what the Commission was proposing. I would like the Amos region to be included in the electoral district of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik.

In point 3, I propose that the Regional Municipality of Kativik, which includes 14 northern municipalities, be included. For a number of years now, the people of Nunavik, in both Quebec and Canada, have been asking that they be given a district and federal riding similar to a provincial riding.

I understand that the Commission's decision was rejected, but the people of Nunavik would very much like to have a federal riding for themselves alone. I realize that they only have a population of 10 000, but things are not easy for them. Nunavut has a population of 25 000 and yet it has its own federal riding. They are practically in the same area—in other words, south of Nunavik. They are located at quite some distance from the major centers in the Province of Quebec.

The problem they have encountered is that in the Canada Gazette, in the Commission's edition, it said that according to tradition, Quebec is normally divided into three areas: the electoral districts south of the St. Lawrence, those located north of the St. Lawrence, and the Island of Montreal. I see no reason why the Island of Montreal should be hemmed in by other districts or why it could not extend into the other resource regions.

In point 4, based on the recommendations and correspondence I have received, I am objecting to the return of the cities of Chibougamau and Chapais, and the Cree community of Oujé-Bougoumou, to the electoral district of Roberval, and to the Committee's upholding the Commission's decision on Baie-James—Nunavik on page 18 of Appendix B, where there is a description of changes made to the proposals.

At the request of the Cree community, a request made in its brief, the Oujé Bougoumou Reserve was included in the riding, meaning that the adjacent cities of Chibougamau and Chapais were also included, in accordance with the wishes of residents.

Being a few kilometers away from Oujé-Bougoumou and the Municipality of Baie-James, as I recall, one of the briefs tabled by the member for Jonquière, Ms. Girard-Bujold, stated the following on page 9:

Your new ridings do not even respect the RCMs or the newly created municipal entities (that people may or may not have been in favour of). It is a new reality.

The Commission took these comments very seriously. It respected the wishes of the Bloc québécois MP, Ms. Girard-Bujold, saying that it was necessary to respect municipal or RCM boundaries—in other words, the new municipal entities. You can see here that the Municipality of Baie-James forms a whole. Chapais and Chibougamau, which were included in the federal electoral district of Abitibi from 1984 to 1988, are now being returned to this area.

In point 5 of my objection, I propose that the Commission's decision with respect to the federal electoral districts be upheld.

They are my neighbours, and we know what is occurring at the present time. Of all the briefs tabled with the Commission—and I have the list here—only two referred to Chapais and Chibougamau. We know that resolutions were adopted, but those resolutions said that four federal ridings should be retained in the Lac-Saint-Jean region.

I say that by force of circumstance, Chapais and Chibougamau should remain part of the Municipality of Baie-James, because that is the wish that has been expressed by people in our area.

I know you are reading my brief. I thought I would take a little more time to explain it, but you do have it in front of you.

We are still talking about an electoral quota of 96 500. The minimum and maximum populations of an electoral district therefore would be, respectively, 72 375 and 120 625.

Looking at that, my feeling is that minor changes could be made. The CRDAT sent resolutions, but at no time did it correspond with me between the period extending from early August until December 12, 2002 with respect to the hearings.

I have in my possession a letter from the City of Amos, from the school board and from certain groups asking that Amos continue to be part of Baie-James—Nunavik. But please don't misunderstand me; we are not asking to return to what existed before the proposals came forward. We have to go along with the Commission's proposals.

I have a letter from the Municipality of Baie-James, which represents the entire area, asking that Chapais and Chibougamau be included in the municipality. The electoral boundaries proposed by the municipality are both logical and consistent. We are asking the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission to reconsider the position put forward by the municipality in its resolution.

The Vallée-de-l'Or RCM wrote to the Chairman, Peter Adams, on April 25, 2003. They are very pleased with the decision and they say that considering their ties with other northern communities, they are very happy that the Vallée-de-l'Or RCM will be directly included in the new proposal.

I also have a letter from the City of Chibougamau which says exactly the same thing. They are very pleased to see that the Commission has agreed to support the position they expressed in the brief tabled on December 12, which was to be annexed to the new constituency of Baie-James—Nunavik.

In closing, Madam Chair, if you look at the map, you will see that both Chibougamau and Chapais are very close to the Aboriginal communities. In accordance with the “Peace of the Braves” Agreement, everyone recognizes that the Municipality of Baie-James should be included in that area, at both the provincial and federal levels. All the political parties agree on that, both at the provincial and federal levels. As the federal Member of Parliament for the area, I also agree. We should not again be considering isolating Chapais and Chibougamau by including them in an electoral district in the Lac-Saint-Jean region. If you don't mind, I would like to tell you why.

In my own riding, coming from the south, I now have to cross Chapais and Chibougamau in order to get to an office in Mistassini. Mistassini is a few milometers from Chapais and Chibougamau and is currently located in my area, although neither Oujé-Bougoumou, Chapais nor Chibougamau are part of my riding. The Commission inevitably decided that the wishes of the people of Chapais and Chibougamau, particularly the Cree, should prevail. With the “Peace of the Braves”, Grand Chief Ted Moses wanted to include that entire area.

That completes my opening comments, ladies and gentlemen, and I await your questions.

¿ (0950)

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. St-Julien, you have told us what you agree with. Is there anything relating to this redistribution that you do not agree with?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: For some years now, the people of Amos have gotten used to the idea of being part of the area associated with the Abitibi RCM, but we know what happened. Initially I didn't agree. The former M.P., Pierre Brien, stated in his brief that the second option would be to transfer the Abitibi RCM to the riding of Témiscamingue. He stated, and I quote:

Also, the Abitibi RCM is used to being part of the riding of Abitibi Ouest riding at the provincial level.

He was the Bloc québécois whip at that time, and now the CRDAT is asking that the Abitibi RCM once again be included in this area.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: My understanding is that the Abitibi RCM is basically the Amos area.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, it's the area around Amos.

People in that area never tabled a brief. They agreed with the resolution.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did they give appear…?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, they never appeared before anyone.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: They did not appear before the Commission, in the fall—in November?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, never.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: They may have agreed with the proposal made in the fall, because at that time, they were included in the riding of Nunavik, based on the recommendation then. Now, however, the new recommendation is to include them in the riding of Abitibi.

¿ (0955)

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, but if you look at the resolution passed by the Abitibi RCM, it is quite clear, and I quote:

[...] that the Abitibi RCM is aware of the new boundaries proposed for the area;

[...] the Abitibi RCM is aware of the new name proposed for the new electoral district to which it will belong;

And their recommendations were as follows:

[...] objects to the change of name proposed for this new riding (i.e. “Nunavik”) and recommends that the new designation “Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik” be retained for this new riding, which is to include the entire area within the Abitibi RCM.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the date on that, Mr. St-Julien?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: That was passed and signed on November 12, 2002. It is Resolution CA-295-11-2002.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: And when were your hearings held?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: On December 12.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: And they were approving…

Mr. Guy St-Julien: The idea of calling the riding “Abitibi”, only if they agreed with the name.

Basically, if you really want to know what all this means, they did not want the Vallée-de-l'Or RCM to be lumped in with the north. That's what this was about.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Just for my own clarification, Mr. St-Julien, the community of Chibougamau is now included in the Abitibi--Baie-James--Nunavik riding. Correct?

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, it's part of Roberval.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: On the map, I see Chibougamau. In this document here, Chibougamau is shown with James Bay. Correct?

The Chair: Yes, it is.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's what you're asking for, that Chibougamau be with James Bay?

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): That is the proposal.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: That was what was proposed in The Canada Gazette. In late March of this year, a final report stated that…

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, that's the March report that he's talking about.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That was for clarification. Thank you, I have that.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Guimond.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Did you do any calculations of the population in Chibougamau and the RCM in Amos, which is called the Vallée-de-l'Or RCM?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: The RCM that includes Abitibi, Amos and Val-d'Or is called the Vallée-de-l'Or RCM.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I see.

With a view to avoiding the possibility of Amos being transferred to Témiscamingue, and Chibougamau going from Roberval to Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, did you do any specific calculations?

If you were to be given those two new areas, in terms of population, what would that represent in relation to the electoral quota?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: I noticed in the report that if you really look, in terms of the electoral quota, there are always changes. Are you talking about the percentage?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Well, if you look at the notes I provided, based on the CRDAT proposal, currently Abitibi—Baie-James is at minus 2%, and Témiscamingue is at minus 17%. The Commission came along and changed that. It said that Nunavik was at minus 17%, and Abitibi, at minus 2%.

I proposed that Eeyou—Abitibi—Baie-James remain at minus 10% and that Témiscamingue be at minus 18%. The second option was to choose other parallels. The whole thing has changed.

Chapais and Chibougamau, for example, were included from 1984 to 1988. We don't have the actual percentages; the Commission doesn't provide complete information in the report.

Mr. Michel Guimond: No, no; my question really had more to do with the impact that this might have on Roberval. In the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, the Commission is moving from four electoral districts to three. That means there is some possibility Roberval could lose Chibougamau.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: It's 25%.

Mr. Michel Guimond: The Commission's concern, unless it decides there are special circumstances involved, is to ensure that the population is within minus or plus 25%.

À (1000)

Mr. Guy St-Julien: That is the reason why I am objecting, as explained on page 3 of my document. I specifically refer to the population of the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region. Looking at that specific issue, we know that the Commission emphasized that in relation to the RCMs. We're talking about the Baie-James Municipality. If Chapais-Chibougamau were to be returned to Lac-Saint-Jean, what percentage would you be at? Possibly under the 25%, possibly over.

Mr. Michel Guimond: You haven't made that calculation?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, I don't work either for the Commission or for Elections Canada.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: We could make that calculation, and I think you might be surprised.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We are here this morning.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, that's right. Because that is not the issue; the issue is…

Mr. Michel Guimond: In any case, before we table our report, we will look at all of that. Elections Canada has a software program that will allow us to determine the impact of that population transfer.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Ultimately, on the other side, I could respond by not including Chapais-Chibougamau, depending on the final report of all the RCMs. If you divide by three ridings, that gives you 94 979 for Lac-Saint-Jean. If you divide by four ridings, it should be 71 084. The electoral quota is 71 084 and 72 375.

Mr. Michel Guimond: No, the quota is 96 000.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: First of all, as…

The Chair: That's not Lac-Saint-Jean.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, as currently proposed, it is at minus 17%, and Roberval is at minus 15%. The figure we're missing here is the one for Abitibi. The number for the former riding of Témiscamingue is not indicated in the report.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is it?

The Chair: For Abitibi-Témiscamingue, it's 8.9.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Plus or minus?

The Chair: Plus.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So, that means…

The Chair: You also have La Conception. What is the number for that one?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: I would like to answer.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The current name is Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik. It is now at minus 2.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: As I mentioned earlier, it is currently at minus 2. But just to answer Mr. Guimond, I spelled that out in my objection, and talked about 25%. I mentioned here—and I will just repeat those figures—that the total population of the Lac-Saint-Jean RCM is 284 336. If you divide by three ridings, you get 94 979. If you divide Lac-Saint-Jean by four ridings, you get 71 084. You won't even need Chapais and Chibougamau. My understanding is that minus 25 per cent would be 72 375.

The Chair: Mr. St-Julien, does your riding now include Vallée-de-l'Or?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: It's in the south. It is in that part of the riding that deals with the James-Bay and Nunavik region, and that has been the case for some years now.

The Chair: I see.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you.

The Chair: So, you want Abitibi, but not Abitibi West?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, not Abitibi West. The people expressed the wish that Abitibi West be brought back into…

The Chair: I see. In your submission, you said that all of this is difficult to understand because from time to time, there are contradictions. Do you or do you not want the riding to separate Nunavik and Eeyou?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Nunavik and Eeyou.

The Chair: Not Baie-James—Nunavik.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: That's right; Nunavik and Eeyou.

The Chair: Is that your proposal?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Let me explain why. Nunavik is an Inuit name and Eeyou is the territory. My preference would be Nunavik and Eeyou.

The Chair: So, you want Amos, but you don't want Chibougamau.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, we want to keep Chapais—Chibougamau.

À (1005)

The Chair: But you said something else.

[English]

You said that you objected to it being in Roberval.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But it is. It is now in James Bay. As proposed, it's going into James Bay. I have a letter here from the mayor, who says, “Thank you very much for putting it back to James Bay”.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, that's what I was asking a while ago. He wants it as it is, plus Amos.

[Translation]

Is it only Amos you want or is it the RCM, Mr. St-Julien?

[English]

The Chair: No, Amos and Abitibi West.

[Translation]

There are two ridings.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Be careful now; Abitibi West includes LaSarre.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But you don't want to go as far as that.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, that would be too big.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He only wants Amos.

The Chair: He doesn't want the County of Abitibi or Abitibi with Macamic there?

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, Macamic is already part of the other federal electoral district. There is Macamic, LaSarre, and Taschereau.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, that's in what is now called Abitibi, which used to be Témiscaming. The only thing he wants in the new Abitibi riding is Amos.

[Translation]

Is it the town or the RCM?

[English]

The Chair: Not the square around it, just the smallest piece?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's what I'm asking now.

[Translation]

The city or the Amos RCM?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Part of the Abitibi RCM.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Just the town of Amos, right?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: The town of Amos and a part…

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Just give me a yes or no answer. Is it just the town of Amos that you want to add to your riding?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: The town of Amos and the area around La Morandière and Lac Despinassy.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: And how would you describe that geographically?

The Chair: I believe there is a large square of territory called Abitibi. Do you, or do you not, want the entire square? Is it Amos or Abitibi?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Amos and the area south of Amos.

The Chair: So, you want another town that is in that square.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes.

The Chair: This is very difficult to follow. At one point you said that you would like the entire RCM to be included in the riding, and then later you said that you didn't want the entire square.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: No, Madam Chair. The problem really is—and this isn't just a problem for me but for everyone in the years to come—that the report says that the riding currently covers an area of 853 000 square kilometers. Right now, it is 802 000. The more square kilometers we add, the more work that means for an MP trying to cover the riding. It is important that the Commission look at that.

The Chair: Yes, I understand, but you're here to get a larger area.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, and a bigger budget.

The Chair: Mr. St-Julien, don't tell me that this is a very large area and that you want it to be even bigger. Either this is a problem, or then it isn't.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Did we ever figure out if it was just Amos or...?

The Chair: He wants some line across that square. We're not sure what line.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We will figure it out.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That would go back to the original. That would include Macamic.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Not as much, no. He doesn't want all of that.

The Chair: No, he doesn't even want that whole square of Abitibi.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, that's what I asked.

The Chair: I know. We're going to try to figure out what he wants.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He just wants Amos southward. We'll figure it out.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, fine.

The Chair: Amos south, which doesn't even make sense.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: As soon as we have Mr. Cyr with the maps, I'll explain it to you.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: How many people are there in Amos?

Mr. Michel Guimond: [Inaudible--Editor]

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. St-Julien.

Mr. Assad, I believe you are next. Your riding is Gatineau.

That can be found on Map No. 2, page 54.

Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.): It feels strange to be sitting at this end of the table, since I am used to sitting on the sides. My comments will be fairly brief.

[English]

I would like to begin by saying that when the commissioners came out with the new electoral delimitations for the area known as l'Outaouais, I had a very populous riding. It was the most populous riding in the province of Québec because of the city of Gatineau, which had expanded tremendously. One of the other ridings that borders my riding did not have enough population. It did not have the minimum requirement; therefore, changes were required so that the other riding could have the minimum amount of electives.

At the time we were discussing all this, we had come up with what we thought was a reasonable solution. However, the commission came back on March 28, and that is where I want to begin.

À (1010)

[Translation]

In November of 2002, members of my team went before the Commission to comment on potential boundaries for the riding of Gatineau.

I do not intend to repeat everything we said at that time, because I am here to make representations regarding the report laid before the House of Commons on March 28, 2003. The Commission's report recommends including the former towns of Masson-Angers and Buckingham in the new riding of Pontiac, something which I am vehemently opposed to. In making such a suggestion, the Commission is ignoring such fundamental issues as the community of interest, the surface area, the size, the community of identity, and the historical pattern of this electoral district.

Our concern is that the geographic size of districts in sparsely populated, rural or northern regions be manageable. The Commission does not seem to be concerned or has not deemed it appropriate to consider the community of interest or community of identity, or even the historical pattern of a region in wanting to merge the municipalities of Masson-Angers and Buckingham, which have a population of a little more than 22,000. Ever since the National Capital Region came into being, the municipalities of Angers, Masson and Buckingham have always been considered part of that region, given their proximity to the National Capital and, of course, the City of Gatineau.

Have commissioners forgotten that there is no historical link between Rapid-des-Joachims and Masson-Angers, or between Buckingham and Rapid Lake? And, of course, there is no linguistic affinity between Fort-Coulonge and Shawville, on the one hand, and Buckingham and Masson-Angers, on the other.

I just want to emphasize one thing about the report I have here. I think it's important to talk about two regional newspapers. In The Equity published in Shawville, the Editor, Ms. Dickson, signed an editorial saying that Buckingham and Masson-Angers have no affinity with the Pontiac region, particularly for reasons of distance. The Editor of the West Quebec Post, Mr. Fred Ryan, signed a series of articles and sent me a letter saying that the Commission had not considered the fact that there was a community of interest and that Buckingham and Masson-Angers were not part of the Pontiac's community of interest.

With respect to the second criterion, I would just like to say that the new riding of Pontiac, as proposed, would cover a total area of 31,000 square kilometers. That is enormous. The distance from east to west, from the most distant points, would be 184 kilometers. From north to south, it would be 260 kilometers.

Given these figures, we can practically conclude that the new riding of Pontiac would look much more like a province than a reasonably sized riding. The concern for size, as set out in the criteria, does not really seem to have counted for much.

Members of the Committee, I am opposed to including the former city of Buckingham-Masson-Angers in the new riding of Pontiac.

I ask that you invite the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec to go back to its initial proposal, as submitted in August of 2002, for the riding of Gatineau. At that time, the Commissioners were truly considering the community of interest between the municipalities of Masson-Angers and Buckingham, and the City of Gatineau.

That concludes my presentation. I would also like to mention that the five aldermen representing the new City of Gatineau—in other words, from Montée Paiement, where the initial boundary was, all the way to Buckingham-Masson-Angers—sent me letters supporting the proposal I have put forward this morning.

Thank you very much for your kind attention.

À (1015)

The Chair: Thank you very much. Mr. Borotsik has a question.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Obviously, Monsieur Assad, the issue here is population, with Buckingham going to Pontiac. We don't have Mr. Cyr here. Do you know what the population of the Buckingham area would be?

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes, with Buckingham and Masson-Angers, it's 22,200 and some.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You're suggesting that that population be transferred to your riding of Gatineau.

Mr. Mark Assad: No, it's already in the riding of Gatineau. It has been taken out.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I appreciate that. That's the proposal. The proposal here is to take Buckingham out.

Mr. Mark Assad: Exactly.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I understand that, but the 22,000 population you're asking to be put back in.

Mr. Mark Assad: That's right, the initial proposal by the commission.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: As you're probably aware, the population numbers currently have a minus 6% for the Pontiac riding and a plus 6% for you. That transfer of 22,000 people would put you substantially higher than the plus 6% currently of the threshold.

Mr. Mark Assad: In reference to...?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The provincial quotient. The commission is trying to achieve a balance. If you bring back 22,000, Pontiac loses that 22,000.

Mr. Mark Assad: I know, but I want to go back to the initial one.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I understand that.

Where do you see Pontiac being able to achieve additional population?

Mr. Mark Assad: When we went before the commission in November of last year, we had come up with a proposal regionally. We had come up with a proposal where there was part of the city of Gatineau to the north of Highway 50, which traditionally was always in the provincial riding of Gatineau, which took in all that area. That area traditionally, provincially, used to be part of that riding, so we said that we'd include it federally.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Do you have a population number for that area?

Mr. Mark Assad: It was give or take 22,000.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That would be the trade-off.

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, thank you.

The Chair: Monsieur Assad, you appeared before the commission when?

Mr. Mark Assad: In November.

The Chair: You appeared there.

Mr. Mark Assad: No, not myself.

The Chair: Sorry, you just said you did. Who appeared?

Mr. Mark Assad: The name of the guy?

The Chair: Well, you said “we appeared”. I wasn't sure who appeared.

Mr. Mark Assad: I had a guy that worked in my association for years, Mr. Guy Bisson, who went and made the presentation. I forget who accompanied him; it has slipped my mind.

The Chair: That's fine. I just wanted to clarify that.

Apparently there's been a mix-up, colleagues--poor André--because of the cancellation. We can run through the numbers this afternoon.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: As I understand it, though, there is the trade-off. Do we know that portion of Gatineau that is being expected to go into the Pontiac riding?

Mr. Mark Assad: Do we know it?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: In your proposal.

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes, I could send it to the committee if they don't have it.

The Chair: On page 63 apparently you get a better picture.

Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I want to clarify something with Mr. Assad. We're talking of two different proposals here. If Mr. Assad is saying that he wants to go back to the original proposal of the commission as in August 2002, it does not imply just that section north of the city of Gatineau; it implies that the three ridings in the Outaouais, including mine, and Pontiac, which is Mr. Bertrand's, are totally changed.

À (1020)

The Chair: Where shall I see Pontiac?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Rick was questioning that. The proposal of August 2002.

The Chair: Map six is the clearer one.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I don't know. From map six I see the difference, I understand that, but there are substantial changes from the original proposal.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but it's also a very different proposal.

If you look at map two of the August proposal, you will see that the riding of Gatineau includes a section of the former city of Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson-Angers, and a very large area of the Gatineau Valley.

The Chair: Is that the little part with the river?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, which brings it up to...what was it, Mark, Gracefield or Lac Ste-Marie? That is a totally different ball game.

What Mr. Assad is talking about when he's talking of a territory north of Autoroute 50 is that there was a discussion between the three of us in the Outaouais. In essence, we agreed that Pontiac should regroup the three MRCs of the Outaouais; Hull--Aylmer should remain as it; the riding of Gatineau should remain as is, except the existing riding of Gatineau had too much population and the newly formed Pontiac riding did not have enough.

The three of us together-- and Mr. Assad was part of the three--suggested that a section of the riding of Gatineau be switched to Pontiac. We could not agree which section of that riding should be moved, so we agreed among ourselves not to make a recommendation to the commissioners. Mr. Bertrand and I did not recommend which section of the riding be moved.

Mr. Assad, now that I know it was his representative who testified, made a suggestion in regard to that section north of Highway 50, but obviously the commissioners didn't buy it. They rejected it, and they switched the territory. They switched Buckingham and Masson-Angers with the Pontiac riding.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I understand all that.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mark, in a nutshell, that's about it, right?

Mr. Mark Assad: I don't agree with your analysis altogether on that. I'm sorry, I don't agree with that.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What part do you not agree with?

Mr. Mark Assad: When we agreed, the three of us, the proposal that we had agreed upon was that part of the city of Gatineau would go to the new riding of Pontiac, because traditionally it was there provincially. That's why we went with that. That's what we wanted. We wanted to find a way to give a population of 20,000 to the riding of the Pontiac.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay, that's your opinion. That's okay.

Mr. Mark Assad: There were witnesses there, Marcel.

Can I just make another point about this thing?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Mark Assad: When we were notified there were going to be changes, the most fundamental things were put on the table--what they call a community of interest and the historic evolution of the territories that were involved.

I reached out to people in the community. I talked with the editors of newspapers who were in touch. They had editorials. They had people write in. They felt, we have nothing against Angers-Masson and Buckingham, but we do not have any community of interest. We have not evolved historically in the same way. The five members of the council of the new city of Gatineau agree with that analysis. That's why I'm here today.

The Chair: Are you suggesting that the region that goes up the river has more of a community of interest with, I guess, that casino territory?

Mr. Mark Assad: No, it's further north than that.

The Chair: If I'm looking at the old map, they had this long, skinny riding sort of sticking between Aylmer...which they made this crazy, massive riding. What's left of Aylmer is the piece that has Boulevard Lucerne and Eardley and l'Outaouais.

I'll ask this in two parts. What's left of the little community of Aylmer has more in common with all that Pontiac region than the Buckingham people do?

À (1025)

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes, by far. That's why the two newspapers approved of that. They understand that, because traditionally, you see, you take Aylmer with Shawville and Quyon right up to Fort Coulonge; they were one riding provincially for many, many years. Well, they still are. They were a riding provincially. They're totally to the west. Buckingham and Masson-Angers are totally to the east. The distances are considerable. We're talking about 160 kilometres.

[Translation]

Do you have a question?

[English]

The Chair: No, actually, I get to do that.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Madam Chair?

The Chair: Yes. We'll have to also look at it on the map, when we get the maps, and with André.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The section that you're talking about in Aylmer was never proposed to be with Buckingham, Masson-Angers.

The Chair: No, no, I said--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The new Pontiac riding would be called Aylmer and would take the entire section of Pontiac, the entire former city of Aylmer, and half of the former city of Hull.

The Chair: Right.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The other half of the former city of Hull and a large section of the former city of Gatineau were to form the riding of Hull, and the majority of the former city of Gatineau, along with Masson-Angers, Buckingham, and a section of the Gatineau Valley were to form the riding of Gatineau.

The Chair: Right.

I was trying to figure out, does that--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's not the proposal that's here now.

The Chair: No, I was just trying to compare who has more community of interest.

Monsieur Guimond.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: Mr. Assad, I may have missed part of your presentation, because I had to take a call at one point. Did you understand the question I put to Mr. St-Julien earlier? It had to do with the electoral quota of 96,500. Have you done any calculations to determine the impact on other electoral districts, if your objection were to be accepted?

Mr. Mark Assad: It would certainly have an impact; there is no doubt about that, because…

Mr. Michel Guimond: Are we within 20, or plus 25?

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes. The margins are very close. At the beginning, we actually believed that the Commission had used a computer to make its calculations, because the figures were practically the same for each of the three ridings.

There is no doubt that this will change the boundaries; I can clearly see that. I also realize that this will have a major impact on the whole area; that much is clear. On the other hand, in terms of the region I have been representing now for quite a few years, what is proposed is simply unsuitable in terms of the community of interest, the community of identity, and the historical pattern of our community—indeed, in every respect.

That is the reason why I am appealing. I read the editorials in The Equity and West Quebec Post. I have received letters of support. As well, five representatives of the new Municipality of Gatineau sent me letters saying that they wanted to return to the initial proposal, which obviously includes Masson-Angers, Buckingham and a part of Gatineau—in other words, the area that was traditionally together from an historical standpoint, and so on.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I can tell you that the commissions did use computers to arrive at this result. Here we don't have the necessary computer equipment to do that, but when we meet this afternoon, we will have access to Elections Canada's software program. We will have a chance to see how it works in terms of reflecting the neighbourhoods and streets.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Thank you. Mr. Assad, where is your office currently located?

Mr. Mark Assad: In Room 237 of the West Block.

Mr. Michel Guimond: But where is your riding office?

Mr. Mark Assad: In Gatineau, of course. It is at 460 Greber Boulevard.

The Chair: Is that in Buckingham?

Mr. Mark Assad: No, it's in Gatineau.

Mr. Michel Guimond: That is the former City of Gatineau.

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes, exactly.

The Chair: Is it located in the proposed riding?

Mr. Mark Assad: No. Previously my office was in the east end but it was transferred to the west end. It has never been in the same place.

Originally, my riding office was on Labrosse Boulevard, in Gatineau, which is in the eastern section of the former City of Gatineau. But after the 1993 election, it was transferred to the western section.

À (1030)

The Chair: Because the riding had changed.

Mr. Mark Assad: No. Gatineau is a large city. There has been enormous expansion in the last 10 years.

The Chair: So, based on the Commission's last proposal, you will have to transfer your riding office?

Mr. Mark Assad: Yes. Once again, it will be located in the east end section, of course.

The Chair: Fine, thank you. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, Mr. Assad.

Mr. Mark Assad: Thank you very much. Can I leave this report with the Clerk?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Fournier. I hope this will be less complicated.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): My riding is a little larger than my colleagues' ridings.

Madam Chair, Commissioner, thank you very much for agreeing to hear my presentation. On November 21, 2002, we had a hearing in Sept-Îles where people representing a great many of the municipalities concerned were heard. I tabled briefs clearly demonstrating that there was unanimity, not only in my riding, but in the ridings bordering Labrador on the fact that there would be consequences for all the other ridings.

Madam Chair, Commissioner, everyone agreed, including the President of the Liberal Party of Canada, who appeared before the Commission, that the proposal made no sense and that there was a need to keep both Members of Parliament.

Earlier I heard my colleague say his riding would cover an area of 184 kilometers by 260 kilometers. The special nature of my riding results from the fact that there is an island in the riding and that there are no roads over part of the area it covers. In fact, there are two islands included in my riding, including Anticosti Island—which I should mention has a surface area seven or eight times greater than that of the Province of Prince Edward Island. For example, part of the area where there are no roads covers approximately 200 kilometers more than the distance between Ottawa and Quebec City. So that just gives you an idea.

It will take some kind of superhuman Member of Parliament and some pretty extraordinary people in order for such a large area to be covered. Just to give you an example, the other day I accompanied a group of students visiting Ottawa. One student from Blanc-Sablon told me it had taken her two days to get here. She had had to spend a night in Sept-Îles, because she was unable to transfer to Ottawa in the same day.

When I visit the Lower North Shore, it always takes me a lot of time. During the summer season, I obviously go by plane, and sometimes I even have to take a boat or a helicopter. This is an area that has been hard hit by the economy. Its only source of income is fishing, and this is an activity passed on from one generation to the next. They are very fond of this area of the country—and we can't blame them for that—which is part of Quebec and Canada. We all agree that these people are living in the place that they love. Yet the riding is extraordinarily large.

With respect to the unanimity I referred to earlier, I want to point out that all the town councils of all the municipalities, whatever their size, sent us resolutions and letters of support saying that what was proposed was ridiculous. The riding is already too big.

It is clear that sub-sections 15(1) and 15(2) of the Act give the Commission full power to legislate with respect to the size of municipalities. Sub-paragraph 15(1)(b)(ii) of the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, with which you are fully familiar, stipulates that the commissions shall consider the following, and I quote:

(ii) a manageable geographic size for districts in sparsely populated, rural or northern regions of the province.

Sub-section 15(2) gives the commissions complete latitude to depart from the application of the rule set out in paragraph 15(1)(a), and thus create ridings that are not consistent with the stipulated electoral quota. What that means is that the size of ridings could be based on the surface area they cover, rather than on their population.

À (1035)

There is also the lack of transportation infrastructures, which means that certain parts of the riding are only accessible by plane, boat, helicopter or, as I was saying earlier, snowmobile in winter.

Furthermore, our riding is 22 times larger than the average riding. That is a lot. At the present time—I think this bears repeating, because it is an important point—the riding of Manicouagan is 22 times larger than the average riding.

I already have two offices in my riding: one in Sept-Îles, which is probably located near the centre of my riding, and another office 250 kilometers to the east. That office receives a great deal of traffic, and right now I am finding it impossible to attend all the meetings and appointments set up for me. Every week I am forced to postpone meetings to a later date. That is unfortunate. Also, I am attending sittings in Parliament here in Ottawa, because this is where the work gets done.

Mr. Michel Guimond: That's because the whip forces you to be there.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, it's because of my whip.

The Chair: That is always the problem with whips.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Absolutely, it's the whip's fault.

The Chair: Mr. Fournier, you said that you have a riding office in Sept-Îles. Where is your other office located?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: In Havre-Saint-Pierre, 250 kilometers further away.

The Chair: Havre-Saint-Pierre?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, in Havre-Saint-Pierre.

À (1040)

The Chair: In the east. I see.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, in the east. It is east of Manicouagan, east of Ottawa, east of Montreal, and east of Quebec City.

There are two towns in the northern part of the riding, one is located 500 kilometers to the north, and the other, the town of Fermont, is 450 kilometers away. There is a road to Fermont that is about 650 kilometers long, but it can't really be used. It would unthinkable for us to take the time to travel that road, which is in very poor condition. It is dangerous. It is currently used for trucking. It is used to haul lumber when there is some, because we are currently experiencing a crisis in that respect, and as a result, there are fewer trucks on the road.

In Schefferville, where there are two Aboriginal communities—the Naskapis and Montagnais—there is a railroad, but the company, QNSL, has a deficit of $8 to $9 million and is giving up on railway transportation because it says this is not its responsibility.

I sincerely believe that the residents of Manicouagan are human beings just like the people who live in your ridings. They are human beings with families, who have a right to be happy, and who have a right to receive the same services as everyone else living in Quebec and Canada. If they are entitled to the same services, then we certainly should be able to set boundaries, legislate and have the necessary latitude to say that the riding is already large enough. Enough is enough! We need to consider the size of the riding, and not just the population quotient.

If it had been agreed that the riding should extend from Baie-Comeau to Betsiamites, which is unthinkable, I would need to have another office in Baie-Comeau. Everyone is saying that there needs to be an additional Member of Parliament, which means there would be two MPs in the same riding. So that clearly makes no sense.

I have other [Editor's Note: Technical difficulties]. Of course, we were very disappointed.

Are you telling me that my time is up?

The Chair: Excuse me for interrupting you. We have the proposed code—the first and the second one—but we don't have a description of the current riding. So, where will the changes be made? Is this not within the standard?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: It's quite simple, Madam Chair, we are asking for the status quo.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But what is the status quo? Could you identify your current riding?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Well, at the present time, my riding is 260…

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but what are the boundaries?

The Chair: What are the towns?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: I will identify that for you. My riding starts in Baie-Comeau, exactly 30 kilometers east of Baie-Comeau, in Franquelin. Madam Chair, I thought that this map had been tabled with you and that you already had a copy. No? All right, I will identify the boundaries for you.

From Franquelin, you go east through the small villages. I can name them for you—the next one coming up is Godbout. There is Franquelin, Godbout, which is some 37 kilometers away. After that, there is Baie-Trinité, which is 40 kilometers away. Then you have Pointe-aux-Anglais, which is also 40 kilometers away. Then you have Rivière-Pentecôte…

The Chair: So, the difference is that Baie-Comeau, Godbout and a small portion of the Laurentians have been added?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: What they want to give me is Baie-Comeau and Ragueneau as far as Betsiamites, where there is a large Indian reserve, before you come to Les Escoumins.

The Chair: Are there changes in the northern portion?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: No.

The Chair: So, they only concern Baie-Comeau.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, the changes are in the western portion, near Baie-Comeau. By the way, Baie-Comeau is a town about the same size as Sept-Îles, with a population of 26,000.

The Chair: You're talking about people in Quebec. There is the first map and the second, but there are fewer in the north.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Right. This is what is being proposed: from Sept-Îles, to expand the riding to the west, towards Quebec City and Beauport, annexing Baie-Comeau, which is 40 kilometers from Franquelin, the current boundary, and to continue as far as Betsiamite in the west. That would expand my riding by about 100 kilometers to the west.

The Chair: Are you totally happy with what is suggested for the northern portion?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: The rest remains unchanged.

The Chair: So, it's only Baie-Comeau and a little bit here.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, in the western portion of my riding.

The Chair: Fine, thank you. Mr. Proulx and then Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In the August proposal, I believe they talked about the 56th parallel. Is that correct? Now they're talking about bringing it down to the 55th parallel, or is it the reverse?

Mr. Michel Guimond: You're talking about the parallel?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes. It was higher in the August proposal. It was further north than what it currently is. Which one…?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Is there a change in the north?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: No, there is no change.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But there is a difference between the August proposal and the March proposal.

Mr. Michel Guimond: In the north.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In the north. It says in the report that the only difference between the two proposals is that it brought it down from the 56th to the 55th parallel. Do you agree with that?

The Chair: I see.

À (1045)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: This is what it says. Only one change was made to this riding between the August proposal and the March proposal. The northern boundary was brought down from the 56th parallel to the 55th parallel.

So, previously, you ended up, based on the first proposal, with that boundary located quite a bit north of Schefferville. Now it would be somewhat less further north.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Including Schefferville or not?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Schefferville is still included.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but what they're saying is…

Mr. Michel Guimond: There is nobody there, Marcel. Nobody lives there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: When they talked about that section…

The Chair: It's different now.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but in Nunavik, they said the northern boundary was brought down to the 55th parallel in order to respect the homogeneity of the area that falls within the jurisdiction of the Kativik administration.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: In terms of there not being any expansion towards the north, that makes no difference to me, because there is nobody living there; there are only animals there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the Regional Kativik Administration? Is that a type of municipal administration?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: I don't know; it's not in my riding.

The Chair: The riding as it now exists is minus 45% in terms of population.

[English]

That's 45.53%. His current riding is minus 45% of the provincial quotient. But it's a massive territory.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: You must have quite a large amount added to your budget. How much are we talking about?

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: It's not much; about $29,000.

[English]

The Chair: He's only got--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He gets an extra 29,000 because of the size of the territory.

The Chair: Yes, and I get extra money because of the population--

Mr. Michel Guimond: What Mr. Fournier is asking is to have a special condition similar to what we had when we discussed Gaspé and Îles de la Madeleine because it's a large territory.

The Chair: And you said you agreed with that.

Mr. Michel Guimond: We must be honest. There is a domino effect along the North Shore of Quebec and there's a cascading effect to Trois-Rivières. My riding is affected by this domino effect.

If the commission were to accept to give special treatment to Manicouagan, there would be no change, because tomorrow we would hear from Mr. Asselin. His riding of Charlevoix is split in two by the fact that Baie-Comeau is here. Baie-Comeau is switched to Manicouagan riding and there is not sufficient population to have another riding in Charlevoix. This is the reason why Baie-Comeau is being switched to Manicouagan. The commission must find population along the shore, going west. There is a domino effect to Trois-Rivières.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What he wants is for the western portion of the riding, as configured in the proposal, to be part of Charlevoix.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes, right. What he wants is the status quo…

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Because you know what this is all about. It's the status quo.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes, that is the status quo, that border.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: You know the area; so, this afternoon, we can figure all that out using the computer program.

Mr. Michel Guimond: It's the status quo because Baie-Comeau stays in Charlevoix; we have to agree to give him special status, at minus 44%, and in that case, Charlevoix doesn't need a larger population…

Mr. Marcel Proulx: You have yourself a very good advocate there, Mr. Fournier. Congratulations.

The Chair: Charlevoix is now at minus 22…

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's what Michel was saying. If we do that, there will be a domino effect; it will affect the entire area along the St. Lawrence.

Mr. Michel Guimond: As far as Trois-Rivières.

[English]

The Chair: One is minus 45%. The next one is already minus 22%.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): It is minus 22%.

The Chair: Minus 22%, but not in the book. The book is proposing minus 7%, but currently it is minus 22%.

Mr. Michel Guimond: It's minus 7%, because the commission transferred one-half, without Baie-Comeau, and the new Charlevoix takes one-half of my riding. The reason we are only minus 7% is why I decided not to oppose it. If we accept Mr. Fournier's proposal, we must check the effect on Charlevoix and on other Quebec City ridings.

À (1050)

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Fournier, I believe all the Members of the Committee understand the issue here. I hope you will have an opportunity to speak to Mr. Asselin, and when he appears before us, he will let us know whether he agrees with you or not.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Mr. Asselin fully agrees with me, with our riding. Baie-Comeau tabled briefs in support.

As you know, when Brian Mulroney was Prime Minister, there were discussions. Baie-Comeau was part of Manicouagan. For the same reasons, it was transferred to Charlevoix. That made no sense. Baie-Comeau was put in the riding of Charlevoix. Since then, Baie-Comeau has not been part of Manicouagan, because Charlevoix did not have a large enough population. The electoral quota was not met in Charlevoix.

I have a lot of documentation, Madam Chair. In the new documents I have one paper in both languages. I could send them to you.

The Chair: No, please give them to us in the language in which they are drafted. We have to complete our work this week. We have to send a report to the House of Commons. So if you have anything…

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Yes, I'll give you my documents. I'll table them. I hear the bells ringing; we have to go and vote. I would have liked to continue…

[English]

The Chair: Perhaps I may have your attention for just a moment. On the B.C. report, I had occasion to talk to a B.C. member who apparently had some staffing issues that have been resolved--not in the staff member's favour--but inadvertently a name was missed. It relates to three of the names that we already have in Vancouver. Remember what our recommendations were for Vancouver, status quo? This person asked if we could maybe just say status quo for his too.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What was the riding?

The Chair: Burnaby North. It should be called Burnaby--Douglas.

An hon. member: Sure.

The Chair: So we'll ask John to just massage the report to include his objection, and I have received a letter from Mr. Robinson to this effect. He was explaining the problem.

So you guys are okay with that?

Some hon. members: Okay.

The Chair: I think we can do it in the context of when it comes to the Vancouver riding.

This meeting is adjourned.