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I have five minutes. Okay, perfect. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, ministers, for being here for this important conversation.

Minister Hajdu, you just mentioned the graduation rates for indigenous children. Thank you for bringing that up and reminding me about that.

The last time you were here, in March, we were having a discussion about setting a graduation rate, which was something you had set in your departmental plan for the last two years. The target to come up with that rate was the end of March.

Has that rate been set yet?

Answer very quickly if you can, please.

I want to go back to the DRIs, the departmental result indicators. That seems to be a topic of conversation today. We're looking at results that seem to be, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, going down. One of his quotes was, “I think it's up to ministers to set the targets and try to make their officials stick to them.” I know both of you spoke a bit about how you're trying to keep departments on tasks.

Is there a guarantee that we have? We've been here doing this for quite some time. The targets seem to change every time a target isn't met. I don't think some of this would be tolerated in the private sector. What are we doing to make sure that we aren't just kicking the can down the road and that we're actually getting results?

I'm sorry, Minister. I only have five minutes and I'm really tight for time.

I appreciate that. We want to take away the top-down approach. I agree with that. I think we're on the same page.

Given that's the path we seem to be all heading towards—and rightly so—why did the department jump in employees from 4,500 to 9,200, according to the PBO report? If you're trying to put it bottom down instead of top down, why are we continuing to surge in the department's numbers?

If I could quickly, Madam Chair—

I just want to correct myself. I believe I said “the PBO report”. I meant to say “the departmental plan”.

Unless the ministers want to stay longer....

I'm happy to go another round, Chair.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. It's a very interesting conversation indeed.

I want to pick up where Ms. Idlout left off, in the area of the indicators and how we have seen in departmental plans through successive years that if targets in certain areas have not been met, the deadline for completion has just been pushed further and further away.

I missed the first little bit. Is it something unique to this department that you're seeing these benchmarks being pushed back? Is this isolated to these two departments, in your experience?

That's despite the increase in funding that this department has received?

Could it have more to do with the process, especially when you have communities endlessly applying for program funding, and the applications Ottawa takes in kind of go around the cotton candy machine and then funding is dispersed out? Could efficiencies be found in maybe ISC or other places in terms of having more direct decision-making power? This is more policy than anything, but the point is that what you're giving is more of a bottom-up and not a top-down approach to dealing with indigenous communities or really anything, I guess.

I'm sure everyone at this table calls you a friend as well.

When you're talking about the mechanics of big government, when you have big government it's hard to have big freedom, so to speak. It's very difficult to move quickly on certain topics or certain priorities. It's a big boat to move.

To your point, rather than talking about endless program funding and endless feeding of this machine, a better way for tax dollars to have more velocity might be to give them to the community and have them decide what the priorities are there, rather than having this back and forth between Ottawa and the indigenous communities—or non-indigenous communities, really, if it's not this department but another department.

That goes to the quote, and I think it was Reagan who said it, that the closest thing to life on earth was a government program. It pretty much explains that.

Once it's in, it's hard to get out, because it's there forever.

Okay. Well, that I understand.

How much time do I have, Chair?

The Chair: You have 20 seconds.

Mr. Jamie Schmale: I don't think I can get into anything in 20 seconds.

Thank you very much.