SECU Committee Meeting
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Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security
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EVIDENCE
Thursday, June 19, 2025
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[English]
Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum.
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(3)(a), as clerk of the committee I will preside over the election of the chair and the vice-chairs.
I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, entertain points of order or participate in debate.
We can now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party.
I'm ready to receive motions for the chair.
Mr. Ramsay.
[Translation]
[English]
It has been moved by Mr. Ramsay that Mr. Duclos be elected as chair of the committee.
Are there any other motions? I see none.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried and Jean-Yves Duclos duly elected chair of the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
[Translation]
The Clerk: I now invite Mr. Duclos to take the chair.
Thank you for placing your trust in me. I will work hard to be deserving of it. Obviously, I will work hard as a member of this team, because we are all on the same team, in a way, one that works to ensure the trust and well-being of the people who elected us.
Before we continue, I would ask you to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents, which can jeopardize the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.
The card contains a QR code that links to a short awareness video.
I will now ask the clerk to proceed with the election of the two vice-chairs.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[English]
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.
I'm now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.
Mr. Lloyd.
It has been moved by Mr. Lloyd that Mr. Caputo be elected as the first vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions? I see none.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried and Mr. Caputo duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
[Translation]
The Clerk: Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition.
I am now prepared to receive motions for the second vice-chair.
The floor is yours, Ms. Dandurand.
It has been moved by Ms. Dandurand that Mrs. DeBellefeuille be elected as second vice-chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried and Claude DeBellefeuille duly elected second vice-chair of the committee.
[English]
Congratulations on your election, Frank and Claude.
[Translation]
We're going to make a great mini-team.
[English]
Now that the vice-chairs have been elected, we will move to the routine motions for the committee. As we know, they enable us to work efficiently and rigorously. These were distributed by the clerk earlier this week.
Would someone like to move these routine motions?
Go ahead, Dane.
[Translation]
I don't really agree. I think it's worth going through them. A number of new committee members have never been on a parliamentary committee, so I think going through the motions one at a time would be very useful for them. That will give them an understanding of the motions. I think it is important.
All right.
Do you have any objections to my reading them? Would someone else like to read them? We'll find out how good my radio voice is. I will start. It's actually a good idea, since these are the rules that will guide and assist us in our work over the next few weeks and months, perhaps even years.
I will start with the motion dealing with analyst services.
I move:
That the committee retain, as needed and at the discretion of the Chair, the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament to assist it in its work.
We currently have two such analysts, whom I won't name, because they keep a low profile, but they are smiling and ready to help us.
Next, I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be established and be composed of four members; the Chair and one member from each recognized party, as designated by each party’s whip; and that the subcommittee work in a spirit of collaboration.
[English]
On a meeting without a quorum, the motion reads:
That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence published when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members are present, including two members of the opposition parties and two members of the government party.
The next motion is on travel. It reads:
That, when travelling outside the Parliamentary Precinct: (a) the meeting begin after 15 minutes, regardless of whether quorum is present; (b) no substantive motion may be moved during such meetings.
That is presumably to ensure that there is a maximum level of efficiency when we have these meetings outside of Parliament.
On time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses, the motion reads:
That witnesses be given five (5) minutes for their opening statements; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statements 72 hours in advance; that, at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six (6) minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows:
First Round:
Conservative Party
Liberal Party
Bloc Québécois
For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for questioning be as follows:
Conservative Party, five (5) minutes
Liberal Party, five (5) minutes
Bloc Québécois, two and a half (2.5) minutes
Conservative Party, five (5) minutes
Liberal Party, five (5) minutes
That is true for the second round and any subsequent round.
[Translation]
With respect to document distribution, I move:
That only the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to members of the committee and only when the documents are in both official languages; and that all documents submitted to the committee in both official languages, that do not come from a federal department, members’ offices, or that have not been translated by the Translation Bureau, be sent for linguistic review by the Translation Bureau before being distributed to members, and that the witnesses be advised accordingly.
I want to underscore how important it is to really understand this point. In recent years, either out of forgetfulness or for the sake of speed, people have tried using other means to distribute these documents, which are so important for the committee. It caused confusion and prevented the committee from functioning properly. Following this procedure is important. I strongly recommend that everyone become very familiar with the procedure for distributing these documents.
With respect to working meals, I move:
That the clerk of the committee, at the discretion of the Chair, be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide working meals for the committee and its subcommittees.
[English]
The next motion is on travel, accommodation and living expenses of witnesses:
That, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding two representatives per organization; and that in exceptional circumstances, payment for more representatives be made at the discretion of the Chair.
On access to in camera meetings, the motion reads:
That, unless otherwise ordered, each committee member be allowed to be accompanied by one staff member at in camera meetings and that one additional person from each House officer's office be allowed to be present.
That, during in camera meetings, committee members may be informed by the committee Chair of the MPs who have been designated as substitutes for permanent members, in order to know which MPs are authorized to speak and vote during these committee meetings. That only those who have been recognized and identified as such be authorized to speak, in keeping with the usual agreed rules of order and decorum.
[Translation]
The next motion pertains to the transcript of in-camera meetings.
That one copy of the transcript of each in camera meeting be securely retained by the committee clerk for consultation by members of the committee or by their staff; and that the analysts assigned to the committee have access to the in camera transcripts.
This motion concerns notices of motions.
This is very important.
That a 48‑hour notice, interpreted as two nights, be required for any substantive motion to be moved in committee, unless the substantive motion relates directly to business then under consideration, provided that: (a) the notice be filed with the clerk of the committee no later than 4:00 p.m. from Monday to Thursday, and no later than 2:30 p.m. on Friday; (b) the motion be distributed to Members and the offices of the whips of each recognized party in both official languages by the clerk on the same day the said notice was transmitted if it was received no later than the deadline hour; (c) notices received after the deadline hour or on non‑business days be deemed to have been received during the next business day.
[English]
Next, we have orders of reference from the House respecting bills. This is another important motion:
That in relation to orders of reference from the House respecting bills:
(a) the clerk of the committee shall, upon the committee receiving such an order of reference, write to each member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee to invite those members to file with the clerk of the committee, in both official languages, any amendments to the bill, which is the subject of the said order, which they would suggest that the committee consider;
(b) suggested amendments filed, pursuant to paragraph (a), at least 48 hours prior to the start of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill to which the amendments relate shall be deemed to be proposed during the said consideration, provided that the committee may, by motion, vary this deadline in respect of a given bill; and
(c) during the clause-by-clause consideration of a bill, the Chair shall allow a member who filed suggested amendments, pursuant to paragraph (a), an opportunity to make brief representations in support of them.
[Translation]
This last set of motions deals with more technical matters, starting with technical tests for witnesses.
That the clerk inform each witness who is to appear before the committee that the House Administration support team must conduct technical tests to check the connectivity and the equipment used to ensure the best possible sound quality; and that the Chair advise the committee, at the start of each meeting, of any witness who did not perform the required technical tests.
With respect to whip access to digital binders, I move:
That the clerk of the committee be authorized to grant access to the committee's digital binder to the offices of the whips of each recognized party.
Lastly, on the maintenance of order and decorum, I move:
That, during meetings, the Chair, if necessary, uses his prerogative to suspend the meeting to maintain the order and decorum necessary to ensure the application of the House of Commons’ policies on workplace health and safety.
I have now read all the routine motions the committee is being asked to adopt.
[English]
Therefore, I would seek consent of the committee members to approve those routine motions.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Therefore, I would propose that we now adjourn the meeting.
We have Jacques and then....
[Translation]
[English]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a motion I would like to move:
That, given that committee members, staff, the clerk, analysts, and witnesses worked hard to produce the report entitled “Fighting the Phenomenon of Vehicle Thefts in Canada” during the First Session—
I'm sorry, Dane. I'm new, obviously, to this meeting, but I understand that this motion to adjourn needs to be decided upon before anything else can be discussed.
I would, in fact, decide that we move to adjourn and work appropriately and inclusively on what work we need to do in the next weeks in order to prepare for the important session that we'll be having, starting in late summer or early fall.
I have a point of order, Chair.
Pardon me, but I believe that Mr. Lloyd was actually attempting to intervene prior to the adjournment, as was I, in order to do this important work. Auto thefts from 2015 to 2023 are up over 45%. This committee heard from witnesses. We did not receive a government response within 90 days—
I hear that. However, the motion to adjourn is prior to those important debates, which we will be having most likely when this committee resumes its work in early fall or late summer. I look forward to all of us making sure that this important work is done in the appropriate manner.
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.
I do understand that a motion may have been put forward, but you did recognize me to speak, Chair. I think, by recognizing me to speak, you gave me the floor to move this motion, because a motion to adjourn is, I believe, a dilatory motion. We would have had to move immediately into a vote, but by recognizing me, I believe you gave me an opportunity to move my motion.
I'd like the opportunity to continue moving my motion, Mr. Chair.
I look forward to working with you as vice-chair. However, at this point, my view and my decision is to adjourn this meeting and to make sure that we prepare for the next one in the appropriate manner, with the time that we need to—
It's a dilatory motion, Chair, so they're wrong. I would like to continue with the motion that is on the floor already. Thank you.
I'd like to challenge the decision of the chair, because you did say that you made a decision that we move on to this motion. Since that is a decision that you have taken as the chair, I'd like to exercise the right of the committee to challenge the decision of the chair.
I have a point of order.
The member is mischaracterizing the process that we were all a witness to. That was a dilatory motion, so there is no debate, and we have to put that to a vote.
Let's do that now.
All those who would like to vote in favour of adjourning the meeting...?
Yes, we have Rhonda.
I have point of order.
I'm sorry, but I'm new here. Can you just bear with me one moment?
If I'm to understand this correctly, we are being asked to adjourn. We're leaving now for the summer in terms of this committee. There's this important issue of auto theft. I know these issues increase over the summer. We're just letting it go—
This is not a time for debate. It's a time to decide on my decision to adjourn the meeting and prepare for the work to do appropriately in the next weeks and months.
I will now invite a vote on that.
There has been a request for a recorded vote.
(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)
The Chair: In that case, we are going to see what the committee wants to do.
[Translation]
Congratulations, Mr. Chair. Congratulations are also in order for Mrs. DeBellefeuille.
[English]
I'm trying to practice my French just a little bit here.
Mr. Chair, I would move the following motion, and I do this in the spirit of what I hope is a measure of collaboration. At the end of the day, auto theft is up by 45% between 2015 and 2023. I don't believe we have the 2024 stats yet. We had a lot of people give a lot of evidence at this committee, and I hope this won't be a protracted debate, because auto theft is very key. We actually had Premier Ford talk about his car nearly being stolen. I think the former minister of justice had his car stolen—or its theft was attempted—three times. Not only should we be reporting to the House on this issue, but we should also be hearing back from the government.
My understanding, Mr. Chair, is that we did not hear back from the government within the 90 days after this report was tabled in the House of Commons. Given the history of auto theft and given that we are now hearing some Conservative approaches finally being adopted here, I think we should be hearing the government's response to Canadians.
It's in that spirit that I move the following motion. I'll read it into the record. I believe the clerk has been provided this motion in both official languages. I move:
That, given that committee members, staff, the clerk, analysts, and witnesses worked hard to produce the report entitled “Fighting the Phenomenon of Vehicle Thefts in Canada” during the First Session of the 44th Parliament, and given that the government did not table a response because of the prorogation of Parliament;
the committee deem that it has undertaken and completed a study on “Fighting the Phenomenon of Vehicle Thefts in Canada” pursuant to Standing Order 108, and that it adopt that report as a report from this committee;
pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request the government to table a comprehensive response to the report;
supplementary or dissenting reports that accompanied the report in the previous session of Parliament be tabled with the main report; and,
the Chair present the report to the House.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I wholeheartedly support this motion from my colleague, Mr. Caputo.
Also, congratulations on your appointment as chair, and welcome to all the members of the public safety committee. I think I am the longest-standing member of this committee. Frank also had a very good sojourn on this committee, and I'm really thankful that he's now here on a full-time basis.
We completed this study prior to the last election. It was a very good study. It had great feedback from stakeholders, and all parties worked really collaboratively on this issue.
I just want to bring up some Alberta-specific issues that we've been having. Alberta has become a feeder province for vehicles that have had their vehicle identification numbers “revinned”, as it's called. These are stolen vehicles that have been fraudulently registered and are resold across Canada—
[English]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I hope this can be an educational experience for all members of this committee on how the process works. Thank you for that.
It's an issue across this country. Alberta also has issues with organized crime using stolen vehicles—as we've seen across the country—to fund illicit activities in other areas, such as human trafficking, drugs and firearms. This is a serious issue. We've even seen reports that these stolen vehicles are being used to fund international terrorism, so it's obviously a very....
I had my vehicle stolen out of my driveway. I had a vehicle that was attempted to be stolen from my driveway. It's devastating when you don't feel safe in your own community and in your own home. It's a threat that all families are seeing.
We have a cost of living crisis. Everything's going up in price, and one key thing that's going up in price is people's insurance premiums. It really hurts when your insurance premiums go up. Recently, people who have renewed their insurance on vehicles that are considered a high risk of theft are having to pay additional premiums because of the type of vehicle they drive. This is a cost of living issue as well as a crime issue.
I don't think this really needs to go on. I think this is a common-sense move to get a report that was agreed on by all parties prior to the last election. I'd really like to see the government provide a response to it.
I thank the chair for the time.
What we'll do now is hear from Madame DeBellefeuille, and then we'll suspend the meeting for a little while to make sure that we all have the same understanding of what is being requested.
Madame DeBellefeuille.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I, too, support the motion. Those of you who are new to the committee should know that the auto theft study was proposed by the member for Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, Kristina Michaud, a former Bloc Québécois MP. We initiated the study by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. The auto theft problem in Montreal and everything going on at the port of Montreal are indeed concerning. The auto theft problem in Quebec has been documented. The study took a lot of time.
I think the motion recognizes the work that the Bloc Québécois started and carried out. For that reason, I am in favour of adopting the motion.
Very good.
I will again suspend the meeting for a few minutes to make sure that everyone, including new committee members, are clear on what's being proposed. I will let you know when it's time to resume.
The meeting is suspended for a few minutes to make sure that everyone knows exactly what is being proposed and to get a better sense of what the next steps should be.
We are back.
This is a reminder that, in order for a committee to work well, everyone needs to have the same information. A few moments ago, I told the clerk that I wasn't comfortable with the idea of the committee discussing information that everyone does not have.
[English]
A motion is a tool to debate, but when we don't have both a shared understanding of the motion and a shared statement of the motion, it becomes very difficult for members of this committee to have an intelligent debate.
This is the first meeting, so we're all in a learning process and, certainly, in a very collaborative process. I think in the spirit of collaboration, we may be doing things now that may be exploratory. It's in fact a good exercise for me, as the new chair of this committee, to learn how we will work effectively starting in the fall. It cannot be, in my mind, effective and useful for the members of this committee to speak of matters that have not been distributed prior to the meeting. If there is a will to discuss motions, these motions should have been distributed sufficiently well in advance, or at least distributed in a manner that everyone understands and can speak to.
Having said that, MP Kirkland wanted to intervene. MP Ramsay also wanted to speak. Then we'll turn to MP Lloyd.
Let's start with MP Kirkland.
Thank you, Chair.
I want to speak to this motion because of my community and concerns with auto theft and what that means for safety. It's not just the theft of our vehicles. It's the safety of our persons as well. To very quickly give you some background, in the first nine months of 2024, Oshawa reported 223 auto thefts. That is alarming. The Durham region has seen a concerning trend of rising auto thefts, with a 205% increase since 2019.
I'm a single mom, and I have a daughter who's about to turn 15. She'll be driving before long. I have some concerns for her safety. Auto thefts are escalating, and they're escalating to the point where now, instead of people just going to your driveway to steal your car, they're much more brazen. They're perhaps hijacking and doing all sorts of things like that. It's because of this concern that I don't even feel comfortable sending my daughter out to the car to get something that I've left in there.
I think the study is important, and I think doing it now is wise. I just wanted to speak to that motion.
Thank you.
[Translation]
I completely agree with what Mr. Lloyd, Mr. Caputo and Ms. Kirkland said. Auto theft is a concern for everyone in Canada, as Mrs. DeBellefeuille mentioned. It is a priority for our government. That is what I wanted to say. We agree with Mr. Caputo's motion, so I would ask for a vote.
However, as you pointed out, I do want to remind everyone of the procedure for motions. Notice needs to be given 48 hours in advance, in French, to make sure that everyone can take part in the debate and that the French version isn't thrown together in a hurry. I hope that everyone will respect our procedure going forward, but in the spirit of co-operation today, we will accept and support the motion. We fully agree with the motion that was put forward, so we can proceed to the vote.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.
We will now go to Ms. Kirkland and then Mr. Au.
[English]
Then I propose that we vote on the motion and see what the outcome is.
Yes. I forgot about you. I'm confused, obviously.
I think MP Lloyd wanted to intervene first, and then we'll have MP Au and MP DeBellefeuille. We'll then see whether we can vote.
I fully agree that we have to discuss this very important issue. Not only is it important, but there's a sense of urgency.
I come from Richmond, B.C., and I want to point out that in 2023, we had 7,500 vehicles stolen across the province. What's more concerning than the number of thefts is the number of recoveries. The number of recoveries from 2024 actually dropped to 77% from the previous year, which was 85%. The concern is that vehicles are being stolen and are not being recovered. In most cases, those vehicles were sent overseas.
We have to be mindful that this is not a petty crime, because we know that these kinds of vehicle thefts are related to more serious criminal activities, such as smuggling and other kinds of violent crime. Sometimes, people have the sense that this is only a petty crime and people are being covered by insurance. However, these kinds of crimes affect every family and every small business. Families are losing their means of transportation. Small businesses are also losing their means of transportation. More importantly, their insurance goes up. It affects everybody.
It's not a petty crime, and we need to address it with tougher laws, more actions and better enforcement. That's why I'm saying we cannot wait for the summer and we have to deal with this as soon as possible.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to check something with the analyst.
As I recall, in the last Parliament, the committee's report was tabled in the House on December 16. In the report, we didn't necessarily ask the government to provide a response.
Is that correct?
—was requested, which it normally is. Nevertheless, we will check.
Mr. Ramsay, you wanted to say something. Please go ahead.
I just wanted to say that I totally share Mr. Au's concerns, Mr. Chair. That is precisely what the strong borders act seeks to address.
I would remind him that provisions in the act would make it possible for the Canada Border Services Agency to hire a thousand more people. The agency would also have greater inspection powers to deal not only with imports, but also with exports, which means it could recover more vehicles.
I therefore encourage the member to support the strong borders act.
To answer your question, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I can tell you that the report was tabled on December 16, and a government response was requested.
Since there seems to be a consensus, unanimous agreement even, on whether to adopt the motion, I think we should proceed to the vote.
Would someone like to call for a vote?
[English]
An hon. member: Yes.
The Chair: We will go to the vote.
Because I'm not perfectly familiar with how we vote, go ahead, Mr. Clerk.
[Translation]
Now I would like to give notice of a motion that I will distribute to all committee members in both official languages. I hope that discussing this study will be a priority when we come back, in September. I will read you the motion.
That the committee undertakes a study, according to Standing Order 108(2), on Canada–United States border management;
that the study includes a minimum of five meetings;
that the committee invites the Minister of Public Safety, the Fentanyl Czar, the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the President of the Canada Border Services Agency, the President of the Customs and Immigration Union, the President of the National Police Federation and other witnesses as the Committee deems appropriate to appear before it; and
that the committee reports its recommendations to the House.
That is the motion I wanted to put on notice, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.
Given what I said earlier, I appreciate that the committee has this motion in advance so that we can work together effectively and have a debate under the best possible circumstances.
[English]
MP Acan, I think you wanted to intervene.
[Translation]
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