SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, October 28, 1998

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[English]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.)): Order. Welcome, everybody. The quorum is three members, so we can start to hear our witnesses.

As you know, there are a lot of committees, but we're always touched by God. They'll all come in afterwards, give us five or ten minutes. They're going to miss the best part, but the most important thing is, we're here to hear the witnesses.

We have Mr. Nolan and Madame Tremblay.

The first time I did an interview on sport on CPAC, I received a phone call from a member of the first nations. He said that first nations participate a lot in sports, and it's an important issue for them.

That's why we're very pleased and very proud to have you here and to discuss this. We all know that in some sports, you even invented them. You're a big force for us in Canada. So we're very pleased and very proud to have you here today.

You and I have something in common; we're not Sabres fans. We just hope, Mr. Nolan, you'll be back as a coach as soon as possible in the national league. We really enjoyed your work, and we'll be proud to see you there again.

How do you want to proceed?

Mr. Ted Nolan (Representative, Assembly of First Nations): I'll start off with a speech, and then we'll have questions.

I thought there was going to be a loudspeaker. I don't have a really loud voice, so you're going to have to listen carefully.

First of all, I'd like to thank the chair and the members of Subcommittee on the Study of Sport in Canada for hearing my statement today. It is of the utmost importance that the government work in partnership with aboriginal organizations to support and improve the extent and quality of aboriginal participation in sport.

I'm speaking from two perspectives today. I'm providing the view of the Assembly of First Nations and my view as a first nations athlete and coach.

To accurately paint the picture of the existing circumstances for first nations youth, I would like to start with a quote from the report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples:

The vast majority of Aboriginal youth— are simply struggling to survive. They are caught between the expectations, values and demands of two worlds, unable to find a point of balance. Their despair is manifested in early school leaving, substance abuse, suicide attempts, defiance of the law, and teen pregnancies— Unfortunately, those who leave school have very few employment options.

Statistics clearly illustrate that first nations people are at a distinct disadvantage when compared with the Canadian population in relationship to literacy levels, completion of high school, unemployment rates, earnings, and completion of university.

Of first nations people aged 15 to 49, 73.3% left high school before completing grade 12. Only 25% of those aged 15 to 25 who leave the system return to high school. Another 13.4% take adult upgrading, and 63% do not return at all. This clearly shows that a critical need exists in first nations communities.

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Statistics show that demographically, the first nations population is growing, and the percentage of youth is expected to increase. For example, 64% of the on-reserve registered Indian population of Canada is under the age of 30 compared with 40% for the rest of Canada. Aboriginal children zero to 14 years of age account for 38% of the population compared with 19% for the rest of Canada within the same age group.

It is also important to note that 45% of all aboriginal people under the age of 25 live off-reserve in urban centres. Thus, sports and recreational programming must reach youth who live both on and off reserve communities. This further substantiates the alarming need that exists in our communities.

When I was growing up, I used to get asked a simple question: How did you make it to the National Hockey League as a player, first of all, and as a coach? I used to answer the question by saying that I was like any other typical Canadian kid growing up in a small town. I skated on rivers and ponds, played my minor hockey in the city, and got drafted to the National Hockey League. But the more I thought about it, it wasn't like your average Canadian kid because of the situation a lot of our kids have to go through living up on native communities.

I still remember leaving the reserve at the age of 16 for the very first time, and almost crying myself to sleep because of the racism and name-calling that was out there, and not having the best equipment and all those things. It was really tough to get to the National Hockey League from where I came from.

For every person like me, who was fortunate to make it through some of those obstacles, there are thousands and thousands who don't have the opportunity.

This is what we're talking about right here today—giving kids of all races, and particularly native youth, an opportunity.

The Assembly of First Nations believes sports and recreation programming provides a constructive and healthy path in the development of first nations youth. I fully agree with this position. With respect to sport, our vision for first nations children and youth, both on- and off-reserve, are the same.

We would like to see the first nations communities provide access to sports facilities. We would like to see quality sport and recreational programming available to our children from early ages through to early adulthood. We would like to see our youth celebrate the traditional role that sport has played in first nations culture and to know who their outstanding first nations athletes and personnel are.

We would like to see physically active, healthy and well-rounded first nations youth, who know who they are and feel good about themselves; who display positive attitudes towards life; who can lead others; who see a future in the world; and who feel they can make an important contribution to their communities and to their country.

We'd like to see participation in sport as a viable career option for those who wish to pursue this dream. Our youth have the option to become athletes, coaches, officials, or recreational directors.

We would like to see opportunities for first nations athletes to participate at higher levels of sport.

When you talk about facilities—to get back to a typical question I have answered before—I have to tell you, I played on the rivers and ponds and played recreational hockey. When I went to my first camp I used to sit down and watch all the players come in from different towns and different communities. The one thing they talked about were the facilities they had in their home towns—the trainers they had, the facilities they worked out of.

They kept talking about power in their legs, and weightlifting, and quick feet, and explosive power, and all this stuff, because they had a dream of becoming a professional hockey player. I had that same dream as a young boy growing up, but unfortunately I didn't have the facilities they had.

So I went home and made up my own program. I had a railroad track at the back of my house, and we had hills and we had a lot trees. I'd run that railroad track every day, for quick feet. I'd run every tie. I'd walk back on the rail for balance. I'd sprint up those hills to put power in my legs. I'd chop down some trees to get my weightlifting. But not everybody could do those things.

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For a person like me, who was very fortunate, and for every other person lucky enough to make a living at a sport, there are thousands of kids who don't. This is the thing we're talking about, at least giving the kids an opportunity, and having sports facilities where they can go and train like others in this country.

So as a means of action in terms of these types of suggestions, the Assembly of First Nations has provided ongoing support for the Aboriginal Sport Circle, which was established by an AFN resolution in 1991. The Aboriginal Sport Circle provides a national voice for the provincial, territorial and aboriginal sport and recreational bodies.

This national organization supports sport and recreational programming to promote healthy and active lifestyles of Canada's aboriginal peoples. It also promotes the development of aboriginal athletes in their efforts to reach personal excellence through sport. Sports and recreation programs serve as an alternative to substance abuse. They prevent boredom and they create an environment where youth and communities can learn and grow together.

The Aboriginal Sport Circle has prepared a national strategy for aboriginal sport development that focuses on the following priorities: aboriginal coaching development; North American Indigenous Games; and national and provincial/territorial aboriginal sport bodies.

I am submitting with my statement a paper that was drafted by the Aboriginal Sport Circle.

The following recommendations are presented to the subcommittee for consideration.

As recommended in the RCAP report, we strongly recommend that the federal government establish and fund an aboriginal sports and recreation advisory council to advise all levels of government on how best to meet the sports and recreation needs in aboriginal communities.

It is recommended that the national aboriginal youth strategy be developed to replace the existent piecemeal approach that requires aboriginal peoples to seek information and submit proposals to several federal departments. Aboriginal youth must be considered separately from mainstream programs.

It is recommended that the Government of Canada support the priorities and recommendations as presented by the aboriginal youth in our statement, and as outlined in the national strategy for aboriginal sport development, produced by the Aboriginal Sport Circle.

These issues we've talked about today are very important. I live in a small community in northern Ontario, and see some of the devastational things that are happening to our youth. I'm quite sure everybody in this room will agree that sport creates a healthy lifestyle for all, and I guess a big part of what we're asking for here is to come to our youth and give them an opportunity to develop not professional athletes—if a few professional athletes come out of it, though, that's great—but to at least give them a chance to feel good about themselves, to be part of a team. Because sports teaches you so much about discipline, sacrifice, and all those good things in life.

I'd like to thank the chair and the subcommittee for listening to me today, and my statement. I'd like to open it up to any questions.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much, Mr. Nolan.

Before we get to some questions from the members, I have a few.

Would it be fair to say that we have to start from scratch in terms of aboriginal communities and Sport Canada? What is Sport Canada doing right now for you?

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Mr. Ted Nolan: Maybe “from scratch” comes into play, because a lot of our communities don't have any kind of facilities at all.

I'll let Paulette read her statement.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay (Education Director, Assembly of First Nations): Thank you.

I'm a Mohawk from Six Nations. I grew up on the reserve. As it was with Ted, our facilities were very poor. I played lacrosse out in the fields. We made do with puddles or a river to skate. But I was never an athlete; I was more of an academic.

We compiled some statistics from notes that DIAND sent over. I think it's critical that you understand the conditions. With over 700 reserve communities in Canada, recent statistics from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development show that there are only 131 arenas in those communities. Out of over 700 communities, there are only 40 gymnasiums, and only 3 indoor swimming pools.

Of the 706 cultural recreation centres, 40% are in poor-to-fair condition, while 44.5% are in good-to-new condition. So half are in a state of disrepair. The other remaining percentage of them haven't been inspected, so we don't know.

Of the 163 youth drop-in centres, 30.5% are in poor-to-fair condition, and 47% are in good-to-new condition. Again, the others haven't been assessed.

That just provides data to show that there's a glaring need for more and greatly improved recreational facilities on reserves.

I would suggest to you, from a female perspective, that there's a great need to promote sports for female aboriginals also. If there are facilities where this training can occur, it gives them a better start.

You have to start at the community level, because that's where young people are exposed. If there aren't the facilities—and obviously there are not—this has to be a starting point. Another starting point is developing the kind of sport and recreational programs and camps that these people can access.

I know the Aboriginal Sport Circle has been very busy working with Sport Canada. I cannot speak to that, but it might be outlined in their paper. I know it's been very difficult to move forward. It hasn't been easy.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): What is the relationship between the Aboriginal Sport Circle and Sport Canada, for example? Do you have any link, or are you dealing with Indian Affairs? How does it work?

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: We lobbied for a number of years, and in 1991 the Assembly of First Nations put a resolution forward stating that there was a real need for an aboriginal body. So the Aboriginal Sport Circle was developed. I think it only gets around $200,000 a year to operate. That's part of the big problem—very little funding. What can you do with that? I mean, it's very limiting what can be done.

It's linked to sports. I know they've been attempting to interact. I know it's been limited.

That's all I can really respond with.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Okay.

Would you like to add something, Mr. Nolan?

Mr. Ted Nolan: We talk about all the support mechanisms and so on. I was involved with professional sports for a number of years. I'm not discrediting how things work, but sometimes you just want a fair shake in life.

As a professional athlete, we have Europeans over here quite a bit. All I heard, both playing and just witnessing it, was, all right, let's give them time to adjust to the style of play; let's give them time to adjust to the culture; let's give them time to adjust to the language barriers; let's give them time to adjust before we really judge them.

A lot of our children who come from our communities are very talented in certain sports. They might be late for a practice because of where they came from, because in Indian time, you get there when you get there. They're not 100% about how culture works outside their communities, but we don't give them an opportunity to adjust, give them time.

So all of these suggestions we're making here today are very critical. Look at the unemployment rate, and the dropout rate of our kids in school. I think it could be directly influenced by sports and programming.

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The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you.

We'll start questions with Mr. Mark.

Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for coming before the committee. Canadians are certainly proud of your accomplishments, Mr. Nolan, as a player and certainly as the first aboriginal coach in the National Hockey League. You certainly do have the potential to be a real role model for all youth in this country, not only in the aboriginal community.

In my own constituency I have 13 reservations. I agree with your report's recommendation that we really need to improve all the infrastructure in the community, not just rinks but the whole infrastructure system.

I have one chief, Chief Murray Clearsky, who is quite visionary. In fact, he bought a franchise in the junior hockey league in Manitoba—that's where I come from—this past year, because he understands how important sports really is and how it works in terms of human development on his own reserve.

The question I want to ask you follows the chairman's vein in the sense that, as you know, we already spend, I believe, between $6 billion and $7 billion in the Indian Affairs portfolio. One of the problems has been to try to figure out where the allocation of funds are, in terms of where it should be earmarked and directed for facilities development, not only for recreation but also for other facility development. How do we get a handle on that?

Following that, the environment for urban aboriginals is completely different from that for those who live on the reserve. In Manitoba, again, 80% of the aboriginal community live inside the city of Winnipeg—probably one of the largest reservations in the country.

How do we create access for people of aboriginal descent who live in places like Winnipeg?

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: I'll try to respond to your two questions.

First, where is the allocation of funds in relationship to facility development? The numbers I gave you are the numbers that came specifically from DIAND regarding facilities. I know the priority this year, and for the oncoming years, as stated by DIAND officials, is clearly that funding is being directed into housing, because of poor housing conditions and living conditions. Extra moneys are being funnelled into sewage and these kinds of areas as opposed to recreation.

So at this moment in time, I have very little hope that there are dollars earmarked for additional recreational facilities until the housing backlog is addressed. I know Minister Martin is very clear that housing is a priority area, and they are going to address the backlog. So the moneys available for infrastructure and facility development will be directed in that way.

With regard to the urban environment, it's absolutely different. I do know that Canadian Heritage is spearheading an urban youth project, with urban youth centres, building on some of the urban centres that are off-reserve, in communities like Winnipeg, where they're looking at creating these centres that are more geared to careers, counselling, and some recreation. So that would be a plausible starting point, to build on what is happening.

The Assembly of First Nations has had several meetings with Canadian Heritage officials. We requested that these kinds of opportunities also be pursued in reserve communities, because there's a great need there also.

So maybe what has to happen is a forum where, instead of going to how many federal department for pieces of it, we have a joint meeting to come together with our thinking caps and see how we might proceed jointly and have one source or one window for funding.

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Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Provenzano.

Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): To Mr. Nolan or Madame Tremblay, I think some of the problems the reserves face, in a sense, with respect to providing facilities would be similar to the problems that small towns that are not reserves face in terms of providing those kinds of facilities in their own towns or villages.

It's one thing to get a facility built in these towns. If they're organized, they go to their taxpayers and raise the money and get them built. It's another thing to pay the operating costs, and then altogether another thing to deliver the kind of programs, Ted, that you were mentioning were absent on your reserve, such as the training some of these athletes had.

So it seems to me there's an overall difficulty in providing any range of sports facilities in small centres, whether they be reserves or whether they be small towns. I know where you live, because I live in the same place, and I know the small places around there and the difficulties they would have in trying to have, for example, their own arena. But once you have it built and find a way to pay the operating costs, would you not agree that the programs you talked about are delivered by volunteers, primarily?

I would like to hear your comments. Let's assume we have the facilities in place. Do we face some special problems with developing the corps of volunteers that's necessary to deliver the kind of programming you are referring to?

Would you agree with me, that these things really don't work without the volunteers? There's too much to be done. If you have to pay for it, you can't afford it.

Mr. Ted Nolan: I'll let Ms. Tremblay answer some of the technical part of that question.

As far as the structure itself, we're probably not looking at multimillion-dollar sports facilities where you have twin-pad rinks. This has nothing to do with skating rinks or what have you. It's just a place where we could start promoting healthy lifestyles.

I lost a lot of family members at a very early age because of poor health. I've recently lost my oldest brother and oldest sister because of health conditions. I joined the YMCA in the small town of Fort Erie, Ontario, population 10,000 people. I go there every morning and I see elderly people go onto the Stairmaster, onto the treadmill, or go for a swim. They look so healthy and vibrant. Our people don't have that type of access, and they don't have the means to get to those places in the city.

My sister just graduated from a small course. She got a job in the city but she couldn't take the job because she doesn't have transportation to the city.

So we're looking at a whole bunch of different areas where the problems are, but I think with facilities, at least it addresses some of the health issues that are very important and some of the self-esteem for some of our young kids so that we don't have them dropping out of school at an early age. They start feeling good about themselves.

With regard to the structure, certainly you're going to have to have volunteers for things like this. The YMCA runs one of the best programs in the country, and they have volunteers to do all kinds of different things. I think once the facility is built, I'm quite sure we could get volunteers to donate their time for aerobics classes or whatever may happen in that facility.

Mr. Carmen Provenzano: I'm not familiar with the recommendations outlined in the national strategy for aboriginal sport development. Do the recommendations in that strategy cover the things you're talking about? Is this something we should be more familiar with?

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: Yes. We've given you the paper.

When you're looking at some of the barriers with respect to commitment on behalf of the sport system and aboriginal coaching development, some of the problems are highlighted in relation to access, in relation to location, in relation to curriculum, in relation to course conducting and an under-representation of coaches and those kinds of things. Some recommendations are put forward in relation to that.

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I don't think they're as complete as perhaps the Assembly of First Nations would like them. We might forward something that would be more comprehensive in relation to the specifics Ted has referred to.

I'd like to add, in relationship to that, that I think there might be a possibility, in the very small communities that do have schools, to make a connection to the schooling. Perhaps we can somehow establish community programs that promote the use of peer groups and peer teaching, and train a corps of youth as recreational volunteers. I think that's a possibility that can't be overlooked.

Because the minute you give youth a task that involves leadership, that involves, “Gee, you want me to work with these people to do something”, then all of a sudden they feel worthy and important. I think something of that nature would be received readily, and it would work. So we have to start thinking in those terms.

I'm thinking on my feet here, but it seems to me, coming from a community that was very small and that didn't have very much, that we just went out and did it because we wanted to play lacrosse. I even played hockey—not that I'm a current hockey fan.

So you have to start from where you're coming from and look at what the possibilities are. I think it has to be community based, and I think we have to draw in the school resources. We have teachers who are leaders and trainers. Perhaps we need to work from that capacity to build capacity.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thanks.

Colleagues, before we continue the questions, I'd like to put forward a motion.

As you know, one of the most important things we discussed during committee was salary caps. We had Gary Bettman and the owners, and we spoke with the NBA and all those sports.

We have a possibility on November 10 to meet Bob Goodenow, but it will be in Toronto. So I'd like to put forward a motion.

Since we have a long process—to pass it through the heritage committee and to go through all the process—I would like to put forward, if you don't mind, that the Subcommittee on the Study of Sport in Canada of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage seek authority to sit in a televised session in Toronto on November 10, 1998, with the NHL Players' Association.

Mr. Carmen Provenzano: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think we also have to do some tidying up, then, because this committee has already indicated that the last briefs it will receive will be November 5. In essence, then, what we have to do is extend the time for receiving briefs, with maybe a tail-end wording that the committee extend the time for receiving briefs to November 10.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Yes. We'll extend it to November 10, since it's a matter of only one meeting on that day, with Bob Goodenow. That will be included.

Could I have a proposer for that?

Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): I so move.

Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): I second it.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): All those in favour?

(Motion agreed to)

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. MacKay, you have a question.

Mr. Peter MacKay: Thank you.

Thank you to Ms. Tremblay and Mr. Nolan.

Mr. Nolan, I guess I want to start by saying—and you're probably going to hear this a lot—that I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of the game and a big fan of you. As has been previously indicated by my colleague, Mr. Mark, I think you've done a great deal for the game. You've lived the dream of I think a lot of young boys in this country—and young girls too, for that matter—and I have a lot of admiration for what you've done. I think it's tremendous.

I also am a big fan of what you're doing now—and Ms. Tremblay, this applies to you as well—in contributing to your community by keeping parliamentarians and people informed of what we can do collectively to help aboriginal people. So I want to preface my remarks with that.

The questions I have I guess pertain to some of your comments, particularly those having to do with facilities and training.

I too grew up in a small community. I played on rivers and ponds, and I played in cow pastures. One thing I remember is that sometimes those with the best equipment and the best facilities weren't always the best athletes, and the people who had less had to try harder. That may have served you very well in your career.

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When it comes down to priorities of spending, hockey, although I love the game, has become a very expensive sport. I'm wondering if you would agree that perhaps, if it comes down to the hard numbers of spending money, we should put more money into lacrosse sticks, baseball bats or a couple of hoops if that would involve more people and get more kids out of crime and poverty and drugs and all of those terrible things they drift into when they have time on their hands.

Is that something you would embrace as maybe a better idea than building a rink or an expensive handball court or something like that, as sometimes happens?

Mr. Ted Nolan: Thank you for those comments.

I just happen to be a person who is involved with hockey. I enjoy it myself, but I don't want it to be misconstrued here that I'm kind of pushing for hockey rinks or something to do with that. The big thing I have really enjoyed, and the beauty of being involved with professional sports for me, is that at least it gives you an identity that some of the kids look up to and are inspired by. So many of our kids don't play the sport of hockey. As Dr. Tremblay said, a lot of girls in our communities need facilities to go to.

So in terms of the allocation of money, certainly hockey is a very expensive sport. If we could get 90% of the people in a healthy environment, a recreational facility doesn't have to be a fancy one. It just has to be a place where they can go.

I'm quite sure a lot of people in this room have children. If your 14- or 15-year-old child has nothing to do on a Friday night, what are they going to do? They're going to try to break some street lights. We have to give them a place to go, a place to hang out. The facility does not necessarily have to be a hockey rink.

I was at Chief Clearsky's opening of his new facility. I'll tell you, that was a great day. It's great to see people like Chief Clearsky doing those things for his community. But everybody can't get a facility like that. What we're talking about is not fancy facilities but at least a facility where some of our kids can go.

To get to the brunt of your question, certainly if we can get more doing some healthy things in all different kinds of sports—and it doesn't cost a lot to bounce a basketball on a piece of concrete and throw it in a hoop; it doesn't cost a lot to make a little track and things like that—a lot of people could participate.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: I'd like to respond as well, and thank you very much for your kind comments.

I think part of our issue in reserve communities is attitudinal. Well-being—what does it mean? I did not grow up where the key focus was on the importance of exercising every day, getting out there to walk. I mean, I used to go out in the bush and hunt with my grandfather all the time, but I didn't see that as exercise; it was a spiritual undertaking, and sometimes it was a requirement to have food on the table.

So that hasn't been part of our upbringing, this attitude that sports are really important, physical fitness and well-being, as demonstrated by the onslaught of diabetes in our communities.

I think part of what Ted is saying with the facilities and being able to encompass a broad array of sports is important. Part of that training is going to be working to change the mindset, to embrace the need for these kinds of things to happen. Along with that will come, I think, once they participate, a filtering of this into young people.

With the aboriginal headstart programs and the focus on getting back to the language, getting back to understanding some of the traditional customs, that will promote it. There's a lot going on, and I think we need to make some connections with these kinds of activities. They talk about nutrition also, and that's creating a mindset. Parents are required to be part of that program.

So as for being part of that program, we are involving the parents in changing mindsets. With that comes renewal and a new outlook.

Perhaps it's timely now to build these kinds of facilities to provide this broad array and build leaders and build very active peers in the communities.

I think this might work. We don't perhaps need a whole lot of money. It doesn't have to be, as Ted has repeatedly said, “the most” expensive, or “the most” whatever.

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Mr. Peter MacKay: As I said, I too grew up in a small rural area, near a Mi'kmaw reserve, in Nova Scotia. I can remember going out for a junior hockey team, and there were native players from the nearby reserve. I felt almost more of an affinity with them when I was in the town, coming from outside.

I don't want to use the word “assimilation ”, because it has so many negative connotations, but, Mr. Nolan, you indicated that when Europeans came to play hockey in the National Hockey League there was this feeling that they had to adjust and we had to give them time, culturally and linguistically. Should we not encourage that in minor sports, too, at an early point, to not assimilate but to bring communities closer together and have native children competing on the same teams instead of against, instead of having a “them and us” mentality, where a team from the reserve is playing a team from the town or the nearby community? Shouldn't we be encouraging not assimilation—that's not my intent at all in the wording of this question—but cooperation? “Cooperation” isn't even the word I'm looking for—it's just having kids playing on the same team, competing together, as opposed to competing against one another.

Mr. Ted Nolan: There's no question about that whatsoever. When the kids go to a different city— I mean, we're talking about all kinds of structures here that we have to improve upon. It's not only facilities; it's the understanding of a lot of the minor hockey leagues or minor coaches in sports about where some of our kids are coming from, and knowing that they're a little bit shy to begin with, and letting them fit in.

There are a lot of coaching pamphlets out there on how to coach player X and player B. A lot of these players X and B have difficulties in terms of the situations they come from. So the coaching has to understand where some of our kids come from, and make them feel a bit more comfortable when they play.

Certainly they should play “with”, play alongside. I had a unique opportunity a few years ago to take a bunch of NHL players to a really remote native community up in the James Bay area. We ran a native camp, a camp for native kids. That's all there was in this native community, obviously. But the reason I brought some of the NHL players was to give them a little insight into what some of our kids go through, and how difficult it is for them to leave the community.

So not only did those kids learn a lot but I thought the instructors also learned quite a bit by the time they left. They understood where the kids came from.

Now when they see someone on the street who's a little bit down and out, they will understand it a little bit more.

So it's not assimilation but working together, playing together. Because we're all here. We're all connected.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I think we got your message that you need facilities. Obviously, the first reaction all the time is to ask government for more money, for more investment. I'd like to ask a few questions about how it works in your own field.

You were talking about how we have to put an emphasis on including girls as well. We spoke with other witnesses who were saying that sports could be a little bit too macho. I'd like to hear about what's going on in your field, from the aboriginal point of view.

Secondly, on coaching, obviously we have a duty to make sure people understand your culture. On your part, do you think the coaching is appropriate? Is there any relationship with, for example, the coaching association? What do you do in your field to make sure people better understand the situation right now in your own culture?

Are you macho, Ted?

Mr. Ted Nolan: No, I'm not macho. I just think it's a healthy lifestyle.

There was one thing I really wanted to do during my whole playing career and during my whole coaching career. I kept thinking about it. It wasn't necessarily to win championships, although obviously we did win some championships in Sault Ste. Marie and what have you. But that wasn't my intent. My intent was to get there, and to be part of it, and to come back and to tell our kids that if they wanted anything in life, they could do it. It was not my intent to come back to promote professional athletes.

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There's a statistic right now that shows that in the province of Ontario, of 25,000 kids who started hockey 15 years ago, only 7 players are in the National Hockey League from that time. So we're not talking about development of professional athletes, we're talking about healthy lifestyles, girls and boys in general, so that all of a sudden when they're 30 years old they're out walking on a treadmill, they're out exercising versus sitting down and drinking coffee and having cigarettes.

Those are the types of things we're talking about. So as for the macho attitude about sports and what have you, in my profession, I have to be very competitive, and I don't like to lose. There are some things I have to be very macho about in my profession.

But it's getting people to understand. Throughout my career that's one thing I really wanted to do, to get people to understand that we're from families just like everybody else. We have emotions. We have feelings. We cry like anybody else. When I was 16, I cried myself to sleep for a month when I moved away from home. A lot of kids who want to pursue a career will cry, obviously because they miss home. I didn't cry because I necessarily missed home; I cried because of the way I was treated. There's a big difference.

So trying to get people to understand everybody, and where they came from, is probably the most important thing. Through support and through recreation, playing soccer together, playing baseball together, those are the type of things where we start bridging the gap and making people healthy and getting along together.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I'm sure you want to react to that.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: I do.

I have to tell you, when we formed a team on our reserve when I was growing up, we just got whoever could play. We were looking at numbers. We didn't care if you were a little bit younger, we didn't care whether you were male, and we didn't care if you were female as long as you could run and play and catch. Even if you couldn't, it was participation that was most important, just getting out there and doing it and having fun doing it.

I think sometimes organized sports are somewhat macho in their attitude and approach. I think that cannot be denied. I think some sports are more competitive than others. I'm more of the mind to promote participation for well-being holistically, where you're bringing in your physical, intellectual, spiritual and emotional elements, your elements of being. It's very important.

I think our peoples are fun-loving. We always have been. We always have liked playing games, and playing sports, and participating. I think that's a national base we can build from.

The gender issue, for me, was a non-issue. I just thought I could hunt and fish better than all of them. When I was in the American navy—I went down on the Jay Treaty—I was a pistol shooter, an expert pistol shooter. I have my medal.

That comes from my culture. My grandpa took me out hunting and fishing, and I was a great shot. Is that a male sport? I think not. And I would think our communities wouldn't want to see that distinction.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Easter.

Mr. Wayne Easter: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Although I wasn't here to hear the presentation, I read it, and there's some interesting material here.

Spinning off from Mr. MacKay's question on how to develop understanding, although people are competing, they're learning from one another. It doesn't matter what level you take it to. I'm from Prince Edward Island, and in my time it would be rural versus urban. It would be us farm folk facing the city folk, and there was no better place to do it than in a hockey rink.

If you look internationally, the Olympic Games develops a lot of understanding between sports people and young people from countries. Where countries can be at war, when you get down to competing in sport and understanding one another, there can be a lot learned.

• 1630

Spinning off from Peter's point, then, do you have any suggestions on how you do what you're trying to do here in terms of establishing facilities and sports in a way that develops a better understanding between peoples?

I guess I'm talking process more than anything else. Does it have to be the government? Is it a combination of the federal government and the native community? What do you see as a process that can move us some distance down that road, to using sport to build a better understanding between peoples?

Mr. Ted Nolan: That's probably one of the most difficult things to try to do. There are a couple of suggestions I could give you right off the top. A lot of it has to do with education.

With regard to minor sports coaching in Canada, I believe you have to have a level one or level two certificate now to be able to work with some of the sport programs. I could not coach my son's hockey team last year because I didn't have a level in the certificate program. I went out and bought one for $50. I didn't take the course, but I bought one.

The people who are putting these programs together have to take in all kinds of different points of view and where kids are coming from, whether they come from urban centres, downtown tough neighbourhoods, or native reserves. Understanding where kids are coming from is one of the issues people have to understand.

We community members have to have an understanding of that ourselves, because we have to leave, to go to higher levels of sports bodies if we want to try to pursue in whatever sporting field there is. We have to leave for educational purposes. The kids that we do keep in school; we have 63% of our kids dropping out of school right now.

That's one of the issues we want to address, and to educate our kids on what they're going to face when they go out, because we're not going to change everything overnight. We're not going to change all this racism overnight. We're not going to change all the name-calling overnight. But at least we could educate and promote and try to change some of the things so that the people who are putting the programs together have an understanding and the people who are leaving our communities have an understanding of what they might have to face.

Mr. Wayne Easter: So the key part of the process has to be education and communication.

I have a second question, Mr. Chair.

There's been a fair bit of discussion around here on the importance of facilities, but in terms of priorities, what is really required? Is it facilities, is it coaching, or is it, as somebody said earlier, lacrosse sticks?

I know in my area, when I went to high school there were big expenditures on football by high schools. There still is in hockey, but football for high schools is a thing of the past, because it's become too expensive. Now the sport that is overwhelming is soccer, because it's relatively cheap and it doesn't require expensive equipment or facilities. There's a strong move towards that sport, at least in Prince Edward Island. It is good for exercise and competing and getting people together.

If you had to give some priorities in terms of how to move, what would it be? Would it be coaching, would it be facilities, or would it be equipment, that kind of thing, and in what areas?

Mr. Ted Nolan: You can almost put them all into one big pile. We need everything right now.

With regard to facilities themselves, I just look at it as a health issue right now. As I said, I lost a lot of family members because of poor health conditions. If we had something that the people could walk to, get to, have access to, maybe they could start walking on a treadmill one day. All of a sudden they could start taking vitamin pills. They could start proper nutrition. Through sport, we could teach all those things.

• 1635

As far as spreading it out and improving the quality of our coaching of kids—because we have a lot of volunteers—they have to improve on the coaching techniques as far as what they're going to deliver, as far as having people volunteer, having a football field cleaned up to have a soccer game, having a centralized place where all this could take place.

Right now it just seems to be scattered. No one is really taking control. But if there's a point of reference, a centering point, and all of sudden there is a facility, all of a sudden there is a director, we can create our own directors—director of sports programming in some of our communities—and they could put together soccer programs. They could put together baseball camps or what have you. It doesn't necessarily cost a lot of money, but it promotes healthy lifestyles.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: I'd like to add to that.

I think due to the diversity of conditions across the country in the various reserve communities and in the urban centres—there are friendship centres, there are cultural centres, and some of them have recreational gyms; for example, the Odawa Friendship Centre here in Ottawa has a gym facility that can be used, that can be accessed—we need to have a clear understanding of what facilities are available, in what communities, where they're not, and have a multifaceted approach.

Who is in most need? In the northern communities where there's absolutely nothing, is there a central place where we can build a facility? In the urban centres, is there a friendship centre or a cultural centre that has a facility that first nations aboriginal youth can access?

I don't think there is one set answer that's going to provide a solution for everyone, just due to the diversity of the problem. It's going to vary according to what community, and what the circumstance is.

My response is always to build on what's already there. I would encourage you to consider that there are many volunteers, there are many credentialled first nations aboriginal people these days who are coming through the ranks, who have the skills to volunteer, who might go to some of these training camps. They can make a contribution back in their community. Maybe that's another part of the picture in providing training to the volunteers.

It seems to me, though, that what we need is hard-core information about what, where, and what requirement. There's not a single answer.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mrs. Karetak-Lindell and then we'll go with Mr. Solomon.

Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Thank you very much.

First of all, let me echo Mr. MacKay's comments in congratulating you. I'm a mother of four boys, so I spend 90% of my spare time inside arenas. Of course, we've followed your career very closely, because my boys are aboriginal. We saw your show on CBC, and felt a lot of affinity with what you were saying and, unfortunately, the racial things you have had to overcome also. My boys have gone through that. Unfortunately, it's a reality in sports today.

I remember something you said in the show, that an aboriginal athlete has to be that much better than the average player to get noticed. It's so unfortunate that this is the case, because there is so much natural talent in our communities.

I'm the member of Parliament for Nunavut, and we have the same concerns you have with very small communities and lack of facilities. And it's not only hockey. I see kids who probably could be training on the wrestling team, or gymnastics, just because of their natural build and their ability.

How do we get training to these kids? How do we provide access to these other sports that are currently not in the north? We deal with hockey, we deal with basketball, and we deal with volleyball, but the cost of living in remote communities is that you don't have access to gymnastics and the other sports out there that you know these kids could excel in.

• 1640

I was on the Sport North organization, and my husband and I have worked for many years trying to incorporate sports of any form into healthy living for our young people. I can honestly say my 16-year-old would not be in grade 11 today if it was not for hockey. We've been able to work the two together to keep his interest in school. I certainly see it as a healthy way to keep our kids in school and to get self-esteem and involvement.

When I was with the Sport North organization—and that's the body that takes all the territorial money and allocates it out to the communities—my biggest frustration was that in our traditional way of living, sports is not a priority with our leaders. In my language, sports is interpreted as playing, as a thing you do in your spare time if you so want to spend your money on it. It's not seen as part of the overall picture yet, as being important to the healthy well-being of Canadians.

I have two questions. First, how do we convince leaders— And I know this is work we have to do ourselves, within our groups. I'd like to get your input on how you deal with that with first nations.

Second, as I was saying, I was on the Sport North organization, but I was very frustrated by the small amount of money that actually filtered to the communities. How do we get the money we get, whether from federal or territorial, to the community level? Do you have any ideas as to how we could get that money to the communities?

Because I'm sure people can say, well, we give x number of dollars through this program, that program, but you see so little of it filter to the actual level that you want it to, which is the people in the communities.

Mr. Ted Nolan: I think Mrs. Tremblay answered the second part as far as how to filter some of the funding down.

With regard to some of the comments you made about our natural talent, we talk about resources, and I think one of our best natural resources are our youth, our children. There are so many talented kids. I think that's what's a little bit frustrating, because you see so many talented kids.

When I was playing hockey, there were 20 or 30 kids who were a lot more talented than I was, but they didn't go through the hitchhiking to the rink to go to the city of Sault Ste. Marie to play hockey. They didn't go through that. Not too many kids will.

Maybe I did it for a reason; maybe that's why I'm sitting here today. Things in life happen for a reason sometimes. Maybe that's why I'm not coaching, and we're here talking about some of the things we could do to improve the lifestyles of a lot of our youth in first nations communities across this country.

Having summer camps for some of these remote communities takes a little bit of work, but if you have an advisory council put together, then all of a sudden— I go to a lot of northern communities, and I see the Toronto Maple Leaf flag and the Montreal Canadiens flag hanging in some of the windows. I know they're the biggest hockey fans ever. If a guy like Vincent Damphousse came to a native community for a week in the summertime, you can see how inspirational that would be for the kids.

In basketball, get somebody else to come and spend some time, and to share some of their experiences with some of the kids about what's it's like.

We talk about education. When I left, I didn't understand how competitive it really was—getting to your comments. We play sports because we like to play, not so much to make a career out of it. We like to play.

• 1645

So when I went to camps, I found out how competitive it was. All these guys were going to all these training camps, doing weight conditioning programs. They were 210 pounds, and I, at 155 pounds, was going against these guys, going, “Wow”. That's how competitive it is out there in the world.

Now, to educate some of our kids who maybe want to pursue a career, we need to say, hey, this is what you're going to have to do if you want to do that. Don't go there out of condition, because you're going to get slapped all over the place. Education is so important.

I'll let Dr. Tremblay answer the question on how to filter some of the money down.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: I think I can really relate to all of your comments, and I thank you, because it's very similar to my experience.

We're faced with this daily. How do we find a way to ensure—

Funding is the key issue here. Funding is the major issue. Not enough money gets to those communities. That's absolutely true.

I don't have a solution. I would like to work towards a solution, and participate in discussions and forums on how we might access, maybe making a decision to fund some of these initiatives to ensure that it does filter down. We have to explore this actively. It's important.

Two, how do we change the mindset of our leaders? Because that is really true; it wasn't ever perceived as something that was viable. It was something we did to have fun. Sport wasn't seen as a career opportunity. It wasn't perceived as important to our whole well-being.

I think when you move from the traditional way of life, whereby physical activity was a normal day-to-day activity—you were walking, hunting, fishing, and you were out there moving, moving, moving—and then you bring it to a modern-day society, where we're clumped into reserves, what happens is that TV has taken over as entertainment.

I didn't grow up with a television, so I'm not a big television fan. But it is big now, so you're competing against that. And then, when there are so many other areas of critical need—lack of housing, lack of employment, and I can go on—leaders are just trying to make the best of what they have.

I think the mindset will change over time with a variety of programs and activities that we're introducing and that people are working towards. As our peoples become more and more educated—and many don't, but a few do go on, such as Ted, me, and a lot of other aboriginal professionals—they are out there, working and doing all they can to promote wholeness and well-being. There is a lot of healing going on in our communities, so it's an opportune time to plug into some of those initiatives that are going on, and to add a message about sports.

I think we need to do advertising. I think we need to do some promotion. I think we need to do campaigning to raise the image about how important sport is in aboriginal communities so that they can get a holistic understanding.

We can do that, and we plug into all the other different programs through Aboriginal Headstart, and through the urban youth centres.

Our youth know that physical activity is important. They know more than the adults do.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you.

Mr. Solomon.

Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, let me apologize for arriving late. I had to make a presentation at a committee at 3.30 p.m. just next door.

I have had a chance to read your proposals and your comments, Mr. Nolan, and I thank you very much for them.

Just to give you a little bit of background, I am a member of Parliament from Saskatchewan. I'm very familiar with the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. I went to the 1993 Prince Albert North American Indigenous Games. I was there just for a day, but I was there.

• 1650

My sense in Saskatchewan—and I don't know other jurisdictions, but Saskatchewan is where I'm from and what I know best—is that, having read this and read some other material, I think it's a very good system—and it still needs a lot of improvement, but it's a very good system—that's been developed through various reserves and at the FSIN, or the umbrella of the FSIN. We also have a number of programs that really encourage youth to become active. You're absolutely right in terms of saying it's a matter of health; it's a matter of education. It's something that we don't as adults understand sometimes, but young people want to play.

I guess the best illustration is my son, who has just turned 14. He plays hockey. Last summer I was going to do some work around the house and I asked him to help out. He looked me in the eye and said, “Well, Dad, let's get this straight. You want me to work. That's your job. You work. My job is to play.” Then he takes off and plays, which was kind of fun.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. John Solomon: He just did that once, however. Since it was so funny at the time, I let him go. What he was going to do was play soccer, and he thought that was a good thing to do. I thought, well, it's not a bad thing on occasion to do that.

Having said all of that, the question I wanted to ask you pertains to the AFN, and whether or not you have met with respect to the issues we've talked about today with the FSIN, whether FSIN reps had been involved with your presentation from the perspective that here are things we've done in Saskatchewan that have been beneficial to our youth, in particular aboriginal youth; that we have a lot more things to do, but at least we're working on it; that the youth who participate in the NAIG are really an exceptional group of people, and they don't all become professional athletes. Very few do, as a matter of fact. They just enjoy the competition; they enjoy the relationships they form.

So that would be my question to you.

Ms. Paulette Tremblay: At the Assembly of First Nations, I'm part director of the youth portfolio. I share it with my colleague, Art Dedam. He's in social development. I just started in March at the Assembly of First Nations, and I'm still just immersing.

So there's a lot of work to do in relationship to youth. We were coming at this from the perspective of youth, and the need and the requirement. We have worked in cooperation out of Saskatchewan, in terms of their sports. We have what we call “Heroes of our Times” awards. One of those awards is a Tom Longboat scholarship. So we work in conjunction with them.

I do think there's a great need to explore the different kinds of models, the different kinds of things that have been done, and to pursue it from that basis. We have worked in conjunction with the Aboriginal Sport Circle because that's the body that represents aboriginal sport. So we've been working on the periphery.

It sounds as though we need to become more actively involved, to provide some insight, and to do a little bit of research in relationship to this. And we can do that from a youth angle.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much.

Mr. Mark, the last question.

Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When the physical education association came to this committee, one of the concerns they had was access to public facilities. As you know, the aboriginal community is slowly taking control of the education system. The question I have is, what role does the school have on the reserves in terms of providing skills training as well as creating an environment for healthy living?

Ms. Paul Tremblay: I think that's very clear. The school systems on reserves are still teaching provincial curricula. So as much as sport is in the provincial curriculum, that's what you're going to see.

Some reserve communities do not have their own schools. People are bused. That creates even more of a problem, because then people can't stay after school to participate in sports.

I know when I was bused off my reserve when I went to high school, I went from a reserve where I didn't have any facilities, and then I was bused to high school, and I couldn't stay and play after. I loved volleyball, and I eventually became involved in gymnastics and coached gymnastics for a little while. So I can relate to that particular comment. That's a detrimental barrier that exists.

• 1655

With regard to public facilities, I think it's a good idea to pursue. Where there are schools and there are facilities, how can we—and this would be the question we'd have to respond to—at the community level find a way to implement programs, after-school programs and programs for adults, with volunteers?

This gets back to it being a holistic picture. We not only have to have the facilities but we also have to have the volunteers who have some training so that they can undertake that particular activity, and take responsibility for it.

That is a real possibility. I think it does happen in communities, where, you know, even in this community you can go off to schools in the evening and take a fitness class. We might want to look at building on other aspects. Walking is a wonderful physical activity. You can then make it a sport, power walking, or running—those kinds of things.

As for skills training in the schools, I think it's non-existent presently, but as far as skills training in the future, is it a possibility? Absolutely. I think so.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much.

I can presume accessibility and understanding and facilities are the name of the game. Of course we will want to take that under consideration. Be assured that the first nations communities will be well represented in our reports.

I would like to thank you both for your presentations.

Good luck, Mr. Nolan, with a future team. Too bad the Canadiens have a coach.

The meeting is adjourned.