SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, February 25, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman) (Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.)): Colleagues, I'd like to propose we hear from our witness today, Mr. Lane MacAdam, president and CEO of the Canada Games Council.

After that I thought we should talk about the agenda from here to the end of April. Also, if time permits, I wonder if we could talk a little about the millennium system to see if there's a way we could link sport and the millennium.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): I must leave at 5.30 p.m.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. MacAdam, thank you very much for coming before our committee. We hand the floor over to you.

Mr. Lane MacAdam (President and CEO, Canada Games Council): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and

[Translation]

Good afternoon to all members of the committee. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to meet with you today.

[English]

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee. Any time our legislators spend time examining the role of sport in our Canadian way of life, we in the amateur sport community are pleased to tell our story, and therefore we applaud this initiative.

I noted with interest as well, Mr. Chairman, that many of the members of the committee have had direct opportunities to experience the Canada Games in their own communities or as visitors. Mr. Riis was a member in Kamloops during the 1993 games and your Reform member, Mr. Abbott, spent some time with us in Brandon this past summer. Mr. Proud was certainly involved in 1991 in P.E.I.

[Translation]

Mrs. Tremblay, I know that you spent a bit of time in Brandon this Summer.

[English]

I know Ms. Guarnieri also spent some time in 1995 in Jasper, where we had some of our skiing events. Mrs. Elsie Wayne was the mayor of Saint John, New Brunswick in 1985 during the most successful Canada Games held there. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure of your involvement, but so far we're six for six.

I'm certain the members will have their own impressions of their experience in the games and the impact the games have left in their communities.

The Chairman: Just to make it seven for seven, when I was in the private sector I owned a small bleacher manufacturing company and set up the bleachers for the Burnaby Winter Games back in 1973.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Your biography in the House of Commons didn't go back quite that far, but thank you for clarifying that.

I will leave behind copies of a short brief and therefore I will concentrate my remarks today along the three themes you have identified in terms of economic impact, sports contribution to national unity and the role of government in sport.

From sandlot baseball to professional hockey, sport touches all Canadians in different ways. I thought I'd provide a few statistics for you to demonstrate this. Over 78% of Canadians participate in sport as a coach, a participant, or a spectator. Sport contributes billions to our economy.

The total estimated impact of the sport industry on the Canadian economy in 1991 dollars was $16.3 billion, broken down as follows. The value of fitness-related and basic sport participation and goods and services was $11.7 billion. These statistics are from the Conference Board of Canada study of 1991. Some $3 billion is attributed to athlete expenditures in the competitive delivery system of amateur sport.

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These references are all listed in the submission as well. I talked to Mr. Blanchette earlier and will provide additional ones.

Some $1.5 billion is attributed to corporate involvement in amateur sport. Sport and recreation is second only to religious activity in terms of number of hours spent by Canadian volunteers. These are StatsCan studies from 1989.

Last week over 45,000 Canadians registered for a wake-up call in the middle of the night from one of our major breweries to watch our athletes in Nagano appear on national television. In fact, during the Olympic Games CBC audiences in the middle of the night out-drew Hockey Night in Canada by a significant margin. That gives you some appreciation of the extent to which Canadians appreciate and support sport.

Participation in sport and physical activity are known to reduce the risk of coronary heart disease, hypertension, diabetes and cancer. These studies are long and exhaustive and there are many references in many sources. A report issued last month by the Canadian Fitness and Lifestyle Research Institute here in Ottawa stated that if all Canadians were active—again, this is an ideal situation—savings to the health care system for heart disease alone would be $776 million annually.

[Translation]

A six-year study conducted in Quebec revealed that children who took part in five hours of sporting activities per week got better academic marks than those who did not participate in such activities.

The possibility that a youngster will never smoke is directly related to his or her level of physical activity. Over 80 per cent of Canadians between the ages of 10 and 24 who are active, have never smoked.

Lastly, in Northern Manitoba, there was a 17.3 per cent crime rate reduction in communities that provided a sport program and an increase in the crime rate of 10.6 per cent in communities that did not offer such a program.

[English]

These facts speak for themselves. Canada is indeed a sporting nation and sport contributes in many meaningful ways in defining us as Canadians. If you were to ask any of the young Olympians who have just returned from Nagano what it takes to make it to the Olympic level, most likely they will identify the same things—dedication and hard work, top-level coaching, competitive opportunities, financial support, encouragement from their families and their community, and above all else a burning desire to achieve for themselves, for their families and for their country.

As these young athletes journey towards the fulfilment of their dreams to represent Canada at the Olympic level, many will have stopped along the way to compete for their province or territory in the Canada Games. For others, the Canada Games are in fact their Olympics. Over one-third of our 1998 Olympic team once competed in the Canada Games, and fully one-half of our medalists from Nagano are Canada Games alumni, including Catriona Lemay-Doan, Annie Perreault and two-thirds of our women's Olympic hockey team.

A little bit of history. The first Canada Games were held in Quebec City as part of our centennial celebrations in 1967, and I think it is appropriate that the slogan “unity through sport” that was coined at that time has been used to promote the games every two years since then.

Every province has hosted the games at least once, and many have hosted twice. Over 45,000 young athletes have competed in 40 different sports on the games program, and over 67,000 volunteers have contributed their time.

The Canada Summer Games held in Brandon, Manitoba last summer involved over 4,000 athletes and coaches from over 600 different communities in the country. Seven thousand volunteers also contributed their time to make those games the best ever. The upcoming Canada Winter Games in Corner Brook, Newfoundland a year from now will host more athletes and more sports than did the recent Olympic Winter Games in Japan.

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The Canada Games are funded by a combination of public dollars, sponsorship, and local fund-raising. As an example, for the upcoming games in Corner Brook next winter, the three levels of government will collectively contribute just over half the required funding and the rest will be raised through non-government sources. There is obviously a strong incentive for local groups to raise the funds necessary to stage the event.

Over $230 million has been invested in the Canada Games since 1967, about half of it in new or upgraded facilities that remain in the communities long after the flame has gone out. The real legacy of the games, however, has been in human terms, as the citizens of the host community have gained confidence and pride in their accomplishments. I'm sure many of the members will have seen that and will continue to witness it today, long after the games have left their community.

From an economic impact standpoint, consider the following: the 1992 minister's task force on sport identified the sport economy as a composite of six different operating economies. While these distinct economies do have a relationship with each other, the linkages in most cases are fairly modest. These six economies are as follows: the recreational sport delivery system; organized competitive amateur sport delivery; sports facility development, the construction thereof; the major multi-sport games economy; professional sport; and retail sporting goods.

While the six economies operate separately, major games hosting is the exception given to link facility development, recreational participation fees prior to and after the event, amateur sport programs that train athletes to compete in the events, and the licensing of products for sale associated with funding major games. Therefore, hosting major multi-sport games can become a catalyst to benefit and tie together five of the six sport economies in Canada. The chart outlined in your brief provides a very cursory summary of various economic impact studies as they relate to the Canada Games and other major games that have been hosted in Canada over the years. In all cases, the impact is significant.

For example, the 1997 Canada Summer Games held in Brandon generated economic activity of over $35 million against direct spending of $16 million. Close to 350 jobs were created as a result, which is not bad for a market of 40,000 people. Over and above the economic impact, and as Canada's largest ongoing multi-sport event, the Canada Games provide the bridge between up and coming athletes and the international level. The games are, in effect, a microcosm of Canadian sport development, if you consider the following operating principles of the Canada Games.

The prospective high-performance athletes who compete in the games are products of training and competition programs at the provincial and territorial level, but are not yet at senior national team levels. While the significance of the games as an instrument for sport development is paramount, economic and community development, civic pride, and cultural celebration are recognized as important and desirable outcomes. The Canada Games contribute to Canadian sporting heritage and bind our diverse nation together through pride, people-to-people exchange, and the portrayal of Canadian values.

[Translation]

The sports and events listed on the Canada Games Program must be practised in the majority of provinces and territories and must help sport development. The format of the Canada Games must also allow for the participation of all provinces and territories. Gender equality extends to all aspects of the games and the Canada Games movement.

[English]

In fact, the combined winter-summer games has a 51-to-49 male-female relation. We're pretty proud of that statistic.

[Translation]

Bilingualism applies to all aspects of the Canada Games and the Canada Games movement.

Lastly, volunteers constitute the backbone of the Canada Games.

[English]

The Canada Games Council was also the first multi-games organization to include events for athletes with a disability; that was in 1993 at the games in Kamloops. Standards for coaching and officials at Canada Games competition are set at a significant level—it's level 3 for those who are familiar with the national certification program—and have contributed greatly to advancing certification across the country.

These various characteristics provide the underlying values that drive the organization, the planning, and the execution of the Canada Games.

The Canada Games are a source of pride for all Canadians. This partnership between communities, governments, national organizations, and the corporate sector successfully advances public policy and societal expectations of Canadians, while promoting Canadian unity and cultural understanding.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I have a few recommendations for the committee's consideration as you deliberate the task at hand, and they are as follows:

The Government of Canada must continue to play a strong role in the Canada Games program. We would encourage this funding and policy support to continue, given the role that the games play in advancing public policy.

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In broader terms, the government must continue its policy and funding support for amateur sport generally. Specifically, and in repeating a recommendation from the 1992 minister's task force on sport policy, the federal government should provide a substantial federal commitment to and support for the future of sport in Canada over the long term, in keeping with its current and potential contribution and benefits to Canada.

Third, in supporting the amateur sport infrastructure in Canada, the government needs to recognize that administrative structures are a necessary part of advancing the system. Providing funding directly to athletes without the support systems in place is akin to providing funding to students and not teachers.

Our fourth recommendation is that this subcommittee become a permanent committee in recognition of the impact of sport in Canada, or that a secretary of state be named to deal with sport.

The fifth is that research agencies such as Statistics Canada create a category for the study of sport and physical activity on an ongoing basis. I believe some of that is actually starting now.

Sixth, we recommend that our foreign policy incorporate Canada's athletes in sport in its strategic dealings with countries around the world. Several years ago there was a fairly dedicated capacity to deal with this issue, but that has since evaporated.

Finally, we recommend that the federal government support daily quality physical education in Canadian schools as a method of increasing the physical activity levels of young Canadians.

These, Mr. Chairman, are some brief observations on the Canada Games program, its role in the Canadian sport system, and some very, very brief observations in terms of recommendations for the committee's consideration. I would be happy to take any questions at this time.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. MacAdam. Those numbers you provided in the earlier part of your presentation—in the way the framework of government is going today, those are the kinds of numbers that cause the people who manage the purse strings to listen to those of us that have a view that sport should be put on a higher plane in terms of consideration for financial support. So it was very good.

Madame Tremblay, would you like to go first?

By the way, Madame Tremblay, welcome home. You know, those games were just a tremendous success—people from every part of the country winning gold medals. It was just great. Thank you for being there, representing us.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Thank you.

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. MacAdam. I would like you to explain carefully what the Canada Games Council is exactly. Who are the members of the Council? How are they appointed? Do you have representatives in every province and territory?

In one of your recommendations, you suggested there be a Secretary of State responsible for sport. There used to be one, but this is not longer the case. You have experienced both systems. What are the advantages of having one? Since there is none at the moment, what are you lacking right now that you would have if there was a Secretary of State? What is your relationship with Sport Canada, its directorate or service responsible for sports within the Department of Canadian Heritage? Pardon me, I'm still suffering from jet lag.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Ms. Tremblay, the Canada Games Council is a non-profit operation. Our offices are located in the Sport Centre along with all the other national sport federations, here in Ottawa.

With regard to the make-up of the Board of directors, it includes representatives of partners who manage various aspects of the Canada Games. That includes representatives appointed by the Federal Minister of Canadian Heritage, Ms. Copps. Three members are appointed that way and three others are appointed by the provinces collectively. Four of the members—so-called members at large—are from the business community, etc. Two of the members are appointed by the National Sport Federations. Lastly, there is the president, myself, and the chairman of the board. Therefore the Board of directors has 14 members.

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Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: You said there were four members at large and two members who are appointed how?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: By the National Sport Federations.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: By federations.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: There are six members appointed by governments, three by the federal government and three by the provinces, as well as the president and CEO and chair of the Board of directors.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: How is the chief executive officer chosen?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: There is a competition. I was the first CEO to be selected following a national competition. That's how I was chosen.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: That's fine. And you are now director general.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's right, chief executive officer.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There is a CEO and a secretary...

Mr. Lane MacAdam: No. There is a CEO and a chairman of the Board of directors.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Oh, there is also a chairman of the board.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's right. That's a volunteer position.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: And the members who come from the provinces are selected by the provinces?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's right. There is a collective mechanism to identify the people who would sit on the board.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Excellent.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: With regard to our relationship with Sport Canada, like any other national sport federation, we receive an annual operating grant from the games' council, but apart from that, it's really a relationship between clients, like all other sport federations.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: The athletes you have in Sport Canada will go to the Winter Games that will take place in Newfoundland, but those who went to the Olympics no longer take part in the Canada Games, correct?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's correct. These are the up and coming athletes. They are youngsters who will eventually be part of our national teams.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What about the Secretary of State issue?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: As you said, I have lived with both systems. At the time, there was a Secretary of State responsible solely for sport. Given the impact of sport on the Canadian economy, on health, on high risk youth, etc, I believe that it would be logical to consider that possibility.

Given the enormous number of issues that Ms. Copps has the manage, I believe that she has devoted quite a lot of attention to sports. We noted her participation in the Nagano Games and she announced grants for sports several weeks ago. Therefore, despite the fact that she has other issues to deal with, she understands the benefits of sports in Canada as well as the role that the government can play in this area.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I will wait for the next turn.

The Chairman: All right.

[English]

Mrs. Wayne.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Thank you very much.

As you know, I'm very supportive of the Canada Games. I feel it's very important to keep our young people busy in sports, particularly in today's society in which there's so much pressure on them.

You were saying that we should adopt that position perhaps and have a secretary of state in the government when it comes to Sport Canada, right?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: As an option.

Again, I think there have been, in the past.... In fact, I guess in the late 1970s, the first sport minister was appointed whose sole responsibility was to help and support amateur sport and fitness at the time to the extent that Fitness Canada was also in the same department. Over the years, given compressions in government and the streamlining of cabinet positions and so on, that dedicated capacity has been lost.

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As I was telling Madame Tremblay, while I think Ms. Copps certainly understands the role that sport can play in advancing various public policy goals, she's obviously a very busy lady and deals with many other portfolios within her mandate.

To the extent that there may be an opportunity to look at a dedicated secretary of state perhaps to link youth, sport, or culture, I think the community would certainly welcome that, as well as that voice in cabinet to ensure how opportunities in terms of sport, and how those can contribute to difficulties in Canadian life, can be maximized.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Therefore, since that position of minister of sport is not there, you see less commitment to sport?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Maybe “commitment” is a bit of a strong word, but “attention” is probably the more appropriate word. It's very difficult for various community groups and constituencies to get attention when your political arm is so busy with many other files and priorities. A dedicated secretary of state would have more time, so attention would be increased.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Mr. Riis.

Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, NDP): I remember that we used to have a secretary of state for sport and amateur fitness, I think. No, the title was amateur sport and fitness.

I like this idea. I have never felt comfortable with the idea of sport being with heritage. I always thought this was an odd mix. I guess it's kind of a catch-all.

The Chairman: It's like putting industry into defence.

Mr. Nelson Riis: I appreciate the point in here in terms of our overseas embassies and high commissions promoting trade and some cultural initiatives, but seldom do you hear about sport, or at least I missed out on that. Is this is the point you're making, Mr. MacAdam?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Absolutely. I think we in the sport community can perhaps take some blame for this. I know when Mr. Axworthy, at the time, was looking at how culture could assist Canadian foreign policy, the sport community was a bit asleep at the switch.

At one time, there was a desk at External that dealt with sport issues. There was also a capacity within Sport Canada to really try to ensure that our opportunities in terms of how sport can assist in opening doors internationally were maximized.

Those capacities have been lost. I think it doesn't take much to recognize—look at the young Japanese fans sitting in the stands at the hockey game with maple leafs tattooed on their cheeks—what sport can do in terms of the image of a nation. That obviously can translate into other opportunities, whether it's business, trade, or what have you.

Mr. Nelson Riis: I like the suggestion very much.

I have two quick questions. In terms of the line-up of the sports for the summer games, are you under pressure to add to this list? I'm hearing from groups in the martial arts. They say that judo is on. What about them? There's a whole list. How do you choose judo and not jiu-jitsu or some of the others? That's one question.

This is the second question. In terms of sport scholarships, could you comment on that in terms of a recommendation that we might consider for looking at sport or athletic scholarships? How does Canada stand in that area? I suspect we do not stand well compared to other jurisdictions, but perhaps you could shed some light on this.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Sure. In terms of the first question, the most difficult thing we have to do is try to make decisions as to which sports make it to the program and which ones don't.

Between winter and summer games, we include 40 different sports. There are probably another 20 that would like to be on the program, but for a number of reasons, they cannot be there. This deals with capacity issues, financial issues, and frankly, the ability of one community to deal with more than 20 or 30 sports at any one given time.

We have undertaken a fairly transparent and objective application process for sports. A number of things are considered; it's not black and white.

Number one is the degree to which sports are practised across the country. For instance, more is better. So if you have judo in 10 or 12 jurisdictions and jiu-jitsu only in 8, then obviously the judo would tend to get a better rating.

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We also deal with gender balance. We have to balance the sports. Obviously there are not too many men ringette players, so if you have a women's ringette team, you have to rebalance things there. And we also deal with issues like team sports versus individual sports.

So there is a whole range of factors that go into the mix when we analyse sports, but I guess I would like to say that every organization that wants to be on the games program has an equal opportunity to apply. There are some fairly open and objective criteria that are used to make decisions on who's in and who's not.

We look at this on a six-year rolling cycle. We know now, in 1998, what sports are on the program in 2003, for instance. There's a fairly long horizon where we look at this thing and give sports an opportunity to apply so that they have enough of a planning horizon as well.

In terms of scholarships, I know for a fact that the Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union, which is the group that manages collegiate and university sport in this country, is looking at this very issue right now. I know it has been a fairly divisive issue within universities in the country over the years. Some argue that we need to have some form of direct support for student athletes in order to not lose some of the talent to the south. There are also others who are more purist within the university institutions. They say we're going to be subject to some of the abuses that occur south of the border if we go that route.

My own view is that there is room for some form of scholarship program. In fact, I remember very clearly that a previous minister of sport, Otto Jelinek, approached the CIAU ten years ago, shortly after the Olympics in Calgary.

Many of you may remember the 10¢-a-glass promotion that Petro-Canada ran. They sold more glasses than you could ever imagine, and they raised millions of dollars through selling those glasses. Jelinek went to that organization and told them that we need to develop some kind of a scholarship program in this country. I guess that's when he faced some opposition based on some of the concerns that creating a Canadian scholarship program would replicate some of the abuses that we see south of the border.

I know times have now changed, and I know the university community is looking at this area. I think they're going to have a tough time finding $5 million landing on their lap like they did ten years ago after Calgary. Nonetheless, I believe they will be looking at that, and I'm hopeful that one will be implemented in order to keep some of our young kids in Canada, going to Canadian colleges and universities.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Riis.

[Translation]

Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. MacAdam, first of all, I want to thank you and congratulate you for your presentation. You have tabled specific recommendations that will certainly be of great help to us in drafting our report.

I would like to continue in the same vein as my colleague. I note that at the Ontario Games in 2001, two sports will no longer be represented: water skiing and archery. Triathlon Canada justified it before us some time ago. To my mind, the triathlon is probably one of the most complete sport there is. Representatives of that organization said that their sport did not meet the criteria to be included in the Canada Games.

Earlier, you referred to objective criteria. I would like you to explain why Triathlon Canada cannot participate in the Games. What are the specific criteria required to participate in the Summer or Winter Games?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: About two years ago, we conducted an analysis of sports that should be listed on the program for the 2001 Games. At the time, if my memory serves me, the triathlon was considered a developing sport. I think that two or two and a half years ago, there were not enough provinces that had a provincial triathlon federation. A minimum number of eight provinces is required for a sport to be represented at the Canada Games. If I remember correctly, for the triathlon, there was not a sufficient number of provinces.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We see that they are very aggressive. They work very hard.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Did they submit an application for the 2005 Games, for example.

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Mr. Lane MacAdam: Following the choice of London for the 2001 Games, the people from Triathlon made some calls. Very often, once the games are over, we conduct an analysis of one sport in particular. We have just finished the post-game examination for the Brandon Games and we may be in a position to take a look of the program and see whether there is an opportunity to include other sports at the Games.

Mr. Denis Coderre: That means that the list of sports is currently carved in stone?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: It's very difficult for the organizing committee, because it must know in advance how many athletes will attend the games in order to plan events and sites necessary for competitions.

Mr. Denis Coderre: But why were water skiing and archery eliminated?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: More or less for the same reasons. We reviewed the list of sports for the Summer Games and the Winter Games. We had to ensure that the sports that were included in our program... It's a question of numbers.

We can accommodate a certain number of athletes during the two weeks of the game. Certain sports that were included in the Games program required the participation of a larger number of athletes in order to ensure that they have the correct number of coaches, etc. At that point, we decided to eliminate two sports from the Summer Games program for 2001.

Mr. Denis Coderre: To go on to another subject, it has been stated that the Brandon Games had generated economic spin-offs of $35 million compared to $16 million in expenditures. How much money did you receive from the federal government for these games and how much will you receive for Corner Brook?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: For Brandon, we received approximately $8.5 million from the federal government.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Of the $16 million?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's correct.

Mr. Denis Coderre: And for Corner Brook?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: The Winter Games are somewhat smaller, but the federal subsidy will total approximately $7.7 million.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Are you currently satisfied with the financial contribution of the federal government or do you think we could give more?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: When Ms. Copps was appointed to the Department of Canadian Heritage, she understood very well that the funding formula for the Canada Games had to be established for a given period.

This formula was established until 2003. We believe that with this planning, as well as the money that each level of government will contribute, we will have the elements necessary to manage the Games efficiently and to obtain funds from the private sector.

Mr. Denis Coderre: One of the aspects of the Canada Games is the promotion of bilingualism. On my own behalf, I would like to congratulate you for your bilingualism as president and CEO at least. As a French Canadian, I feel very well represented. Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Thank you very much.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Proud.

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MacAdam, I welcome you here. First of all, I want to say that I think your recommendation about the subcommittee becoming a permanent committee or, in fact, a secretary of state, is an idea that we should study very seriously. I believe that with a secretary of state or minister of sport, you put sport on a higher plane. Government-wise, we seem to have put it on the back burner in the last number of years even though it's a very important aspect of our culture and of our society.

Also, we talk about health care. We're always promoting better ways of doing health care. As you said, I think this is probably one of the ways in which we can promote this as they do in other countries.

I also wanted to just ask a couple of questions. You've talked about the Canada Games at different centres across the country. They've been all over Canada now, as I understand it. We had some witnesses here a while ago saying to us that one of the things Canada had was plenty of infrastructure for sporting events.

My first question would be whether or not you agree with this. If this is not so, let me ask you this: do you think the Canada Games can be held continually in places where this infrastructure is in place now, or should they go to other places to give them a chance to have some of this infrastructure? These people who appeared the other day told us that we're overloaded with infrastructure for this.

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Mr. Lane MacAdam: I guess it really depends on who you speak to. For those communities that have secured the games or will be bidding for them with a view to accelerating or developing new infrastructure, they will tell you quite clearly that having the games in their communities really does provide that infrastructure boost. In fact, in the days when the games were in Charlottetown, the infrastructure dollars spent were a lot more than they are today.

It really depends on who you talk to. In Ontario, there are certainly a lot more communities with a fairly good inventory of facilities and infrastructure that could host the games tomorrow, whereas some of the smaller markets in the country—and some of the smaller provinces—can probably use additional support to refurbish some existing facilities or create new ones.

Mr. George Proud: I guess what I'm trying to find out is this: if we went to the places where the facilities are, would we be able to do more for sport itself, rather than spending the money on new facilities?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: I think that's probably true. If those dollars are spent in other ways in the development of sport, then the impact can obviously be greater. If your question is whether or not we can host the Canada Games in the next ten to twenty years in communities that have existing infrastucture, the answer is certainly yes.

Mr. George Proud: Let me tell you what I'm getting at. In communities like the one I come from, and in those in other parts of the country that are out of the main circle, it's hard for our athletes to get a foot up on things. They have to fight right from day one to get recognized, and they don't have the coaching that they do in the bigger centres. This is a problem that we always have to look at. We have been fortunate in my province. We've had our share of professional athletes. But I think there's a great potential there that hasn't been tapped because of the lack of those facilities, such as coaches who can do the job.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: You may be aware that a string of national training centres are starting to emerge across the country. The jury is out in terms of how they work. In some sports they work very well. At the speed skating oval in Calgary, for instance, where athletes congregate to actually train, they have proper coaching, proper sport science support, and state of the art facilities. I think the results speak for themselves based on our success in Nagano. For other sports that are club-based, it may not work as well because those sports don't need centralized training facilities. They have the club structures in other parts of the country.

In Atlantic Canada's case, there doesn't exist now an Atlantic-based training centre. I know there has been some discussion on now trying to create one in order to provide those kinds of opportunities for the smaller provinces and the smaller centres, particularly in eastern Canada.

Mr. George Proud: Thank you.

The Chairman: Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: How do you select the winter sports and the summer sports? It seems to me that we usually see certain sports at the Summer Games, but you included them on the Winter Games list. How did you decide this?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: The national federations are the ones who decide that. Let's take basketball for example. Previously, basketball was listed on the Winter Games program, but given the conflict that can exist with basketball in the schools, they requested that basketball be on the Summer Games program.

That's a decision made by the national federations based on the season when the sport is practised in a given system. Do you have another specific example?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Fencing, for instance, is listed in winter, whereas at the Olympics it's in summer.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: It's also a matter of including all the sports in the Summer Games program. At the Olympic Games, the summer program includes between 26 and 28 sports, whereas the Winter Games program only has 10 or 12. Concerning the number of athletes, I think there were 2,600 in Nagano.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There are 16 sports in summer and 21 in winter.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: But in summer, there are more team sports.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Therefore, in terms of numbers...

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: This balances out the number of athletes a bit better.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: There are 3,500 athletes at the Summer Games and 3,200 at the Winter Games.

• 1625

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: On page 20, what does your recommendation no. 6 mean exactly?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: You undoubtedly know that Canada has some support from people in other countries, including the Japanese. On television, I saw young people, fans in the stands, who had...

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Our flag, yes.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: ... our Canadian flag.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It was generously distributed.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Quite apart from that, the young people of other countries wanted to support Canada. That reflects the nature of our country to some extent. Many years ago, sports were precisely an important factor in our foreign strategy. However, we've lost that capacity over the past few years.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I am just trying to understand. What exactly do these words mean that are written there: "That our foreign policy incorporates Canadian athletes and sport in its strategy"? What does the following word mean?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: This involves our interactions with other countries.

Mr. Denis Coderre: The athletes are like ambassadors for the country.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's right. That's what this means.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, but they're not yet at the level of international competition. When they go to Sports Canada, they are not yet involved in international competitions.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: This is not applicable to the athletes of the Canada Games; it's in general.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Oh, you mean in general.

Ms. Lane MacAdam: That's right. Many of these recommendations do not apply to the Canada Games. It's just for the system in general.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Therefore, for our athletes in general.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's exactly right.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: When we had a junior minister responsible for sports, there was also what was referred to as Fitness, which now comes under the Department of Health. Do you believe that this should be under one roof again? Does your recommendation no. 4 include only sports?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's a very interesting question. When sports and fitness were separated many years ago, I said to myself that it was a good idea that the responsibility for promoting fitness be given over to the Department of Health. However, I believe that because of the various bureaucratic structures involved, this capacity was somewhat lost in the huge machinery of Health Canada. Therefore, today, I would say that it would be better that it be included with sports, because there is no doubt that there is a kind of continuum there. There are young people involved in physical activity. Some of them will join clubs and those clubs will participate in competitions locally, provincially and even nationally. It's that pyramid that creates the athletes and the olympians.

Therefore, there is certainly a link between physical activity in the schools in general and top performance in sports.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: In the document, you list the places where the Games will be held. You indicate that in 2003, they will be held in New Brunswick. Does this mean that it's New Brunswick's turn and that you haven't yet selected the city where the Games will take place?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's correct.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Do you mean, for example, that in 2005 it will be Prince Edward Island's turn?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: In 2005, it will be in Saskatchewan.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Who determines that? Saskatchewan will have the Games for the third time whereas Prince Edward island will only have hosted them once.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: It's a bit complicated, but essentially the provinces decide among themselves which edition of the Games they want. In fact, Prince Edward Island and Saskatchewan switched places.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Very good. So they determine that together.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That's right.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Once it has been decided that it will be New Brunswick in 2003, is it difficult to find someone in New Brunswick who wants to host the Games?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Normally, no. I know that...

[English]

Mr. George Proud: Elsie would hold them tomorrow.

• 1630

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: You're right. We had over 4,000 volunteers for the Canada Summer Games. There's no problem at all.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It which city of New Brunswick will the Games take place?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: That has not yet been established, but the province would like to recommend a city in the north of the province. Two cities, Campbellton and Bathurst, are currently examining the issue.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Fine. Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Elsie, were there any other questions?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, I don't have any further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: I would like to ask one question, Mr. MacAdam.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I still have one.

The Chairman: Go ahead.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Do television rights represent a portion of the significant revenue you have?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: No.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: One of the problems with the promotion of the Canada Games is that these young people are not well known. They're not all Elvis Stojkos or Marc Gagnons. They are not household names. These are the up-and-comers.

It's difficult to sell our broadcasting rights to television. However, I can tell you that the RDS and TSN networks have, for the first time, made a commitment to cover the Canada Games starting with the Brandon Games.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: They were in Brandon.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: In Brandon, they tripled the coverage, both in English and French, which is much better than what we had in the past. They made a commitment for three editions of the Games. Knowing that a broadcaster would be there in 1997, 1999 and 2001, we could plan accordingly.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: You are undoubtedly familiar with the program whereby professional athletes subsidize an amateur athlete. I was looking at the list you gave us on pages 7 and 8. I know three quarters of these athletes, or perhaps almost 90% of them. They've become stars. Isn't there some way to use these people for promotion? Is that something you can consider?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Yes, absolutely.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Is it a sponsorship?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Yes, that's exactly right. They do the same thing for the Quebec Games.

In 1997, Steve Nash, who now plays in the National Basketball Association, was a sort of spokesman for the Games. There was Clara Hughes. Therefore, they often ask these young people to help amateur sport.

[English]

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Can I just make an observation, Mr. Chair?

The Chairman: Of course.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: When you host the Canada Summer Games, it really puts you on the map; and it doesn't just put you on the map in Canada, it puts you on the map with other countries as well. After we hosted the games in Saint John, New Brunswick, the CFL asked me if it could play in Saint John. The Montreal Alouettes and the Winnipeg Blue Bombers came. After that the Toronto Maple Leafs came and they said “Can we play down there; can we just come?” After that we had the baseball team from Toronto as well.

Anyway, they all came in. Yes, we had the Blue Jays. God love them, they went to the bar and got into trouble.

Mr. George Proud: Were you with them?

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, I wasn't with them, God love them.

I want to say it really is good for the community, but it's good for Canada as a whole, and I just want to close with this.

I say this for Madame Tremblay so she understands, as not everyone is into sports. But a group of people from my cultural group said to me that we should have something for all of our people. So we built a huge stage and had different groups come from every province in Canada, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. Every night was a different province's night in Saint John, New Brunswick. Each province sent a different group in to entertain.

It was absolutely magnificent, and the Festival sur mer, or the Festival by the Sea, has continued to this day. It's really something. When you put all those young people under one roof, it's just wonderful the way they share. I have to tell you, I have never seen anything like it. It was absolutely fabulous and our young people just enjoyed every moment of it.

So when he said we had the best Canada Games, it was because of different things, but we used a little different approach to them. We let them grow and it was beautiful. I would support it. It's good for the young people, it's good for the communities, and it's good for Canada as a whole. It really is.

So I'll just close with that.

• 1635

The Chairman: Mrs. Wayne, people are still talking about that Canada Games event you and your community staged. It was an extraordinarily good event.

I would like to ask Mr. MacAdam a question about recommendation 7. As you know, we in this committee have to be extraordinarily sensitive about jurisdictional responsibilities, and we are ultra-sensitive about making sure that we do not touch provincial jurisdictions and provincial roles.

Some of us are going to be getting a little lottery debate going later on as this committee evolves to talk about the notion of whether we could have a national lottery, a one-off, exempt—the premiers would all have to be on side—with all the proceeds going to amateur athletes all across Canada. And you know that's going to be a sensitive discussion, because the provinces guard lotteries jealously, even though they were a gift from the national government.

Educational jurisdiction is even more sensitive. How would you propose to implement recommendation 7 so that the national government is not perceived as intruding into the educational realm?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: I recognize that this is a potentially sensitive one, but I think there are ways. There are national organizations working in this field that have provincial chapters, so supporting them is one way. For instance, the Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance is an agency funded by the federal government that does research in this very area.

I think a lot of the research is in place in terms of analysing the benefits and the impact of getting kids involved in physical activity or sport programs or any other program that keeps them involved, off the streets and out of trouble. The evidence is clear.

For instance, I know that right now there's some significant research happening on a longitudinal basis to really look at the impact of this. This can be research supported by the national government, without getting into the jurisdictional issues of trying to implement this in provinces.

There are ways around this without peering over the shoulders of provincial governments and yet still making a fairly strong statement that this is really the base our future Olympians will be created from, not to mention the health benefits. While the federal government is not directly involved in education, it certainly is in health, and I think there's a fairly clear link between active Canadians and the resulting change and decrease in potential health care costs.

The Chairman: I would really appreciate it if you could reflect on that recommendation a little more and maybe even come back to us on how you would design a program of implementation. I think that's a very good recommendation, but I'd be very nervous about getting the education ministers of all the provinces a little uptight—

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Sure.

The Chairman: —if we didn't position it or present it in a way that shows we aren't trying to interfere.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Right. There are certainly some organizations much more qualified than I am in this area, and I'd be happy to ensure that the researchers have access to those groups doing great work in this area.

I think one of the great disconnections we have in terms of our Canadian sport system is making that link to schools—

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: —and there are tremendous social and economic benefits that can result if we do make the link. If you look at some of the world powers in sports, nine times out of ten you'll find a better connection with their school systems and their national and international programs.

It's probably one of the shortcomings of our federation in terms of how we've pieced off jurisdictions. This one kind of got left between the stools a little bit.

The Chairman: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. MacAdam.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Mr. Chairman—

The Chairman: Go ahead.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: You mentioned the word “lottery” and I guess I wasn't going to raise it, but since you did, I certainly want to comment on it. I think that even in that regard there are ways in which the federal government can potentially revisit the whole lottery question without getting into a huge donnybrook with the provinces.

I'm fairly familiar with the handover that occurred in the late 1970s and what's transpired since that time in terms of federal-provincial relations in the area of lotteries. I think there is room for the national government to be involved in it, in a very limited way, without alienating and encroaching on what is currently exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. We would like to come back to that.

Madame Tremblay.

• 1640

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: When a city decides to apply, generally speaking, does it already have the infrastructure necessary or does this give it the opportunity to build interesting infrastructures that are then put at the disposal of the community?

Mr. Lane MacAdam: A community must have a certain basic infrastructure. This may not have been the case for the Kamloops Games, in Mr. Riis' riding. Kamloops wanted a new swimming pool. They didn't have an indoor pool and they wanted to be able to serve the community long after the Games, but they certainly had a well- established base of other infrastructures. There was an arena for basketball, softball diamonds, soccer fields, etc. The city really wanted this new pool. Therefore, it submitted its candidacy with the infrastructure it already had for other sports, but it really wanted to build the swimming pool for the Games, as well as to serve the community afterwards. There was a bit of both.

You have to have a certain base, because with 6 million dollars, you don't go very far in building infrastructure for sports.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. MacAdam. Your presentation was appreciated, and we'll get back to you for some further work.

Mr. Lane MacAdam: Good luck with your deliberations.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Madame Tremblay, can we chat for a couple of minutes about our proceedings? Do you have the dates in front of you? On March 18, 25 and 31, I don't have any concern that we can have all of our members here for those events. My concern, Madame Tremblay, is the second week of our adjournment.

This is a discussion, of course. There is a proposal here that we sit on April 14 and 15, the Tuesday and Wednesday of the second week of the recess. I would propose that the witnesses on April 16 be rescheduled to a period when we're sitting. But in order to really pull this together, we need a couple of days where we really blast away.

My question to you is this. I know I have enough government members to come in on April 14 and 15, but we are in your hands, because to make this committee work, we need an opposition member during those two days, April 14 and 15. I didn't know if you were planning to take a long holiday in Cuba or Hawaii or something.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Wouldn't it be easier on the 15th and 16th? The 13th is a holiday. It's Easter Monday and it's more difficult for me to travel on holidays.

[English]

The Chairman: Fair enough. So move April 14 to April 16. If you could do that, pas de problème.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: The 15th and 16th would be easier for me than the 14th and 15th.

[English]

The Chairman: That's terrific.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It starts early on the 14th. It starts at 9 o'clock.

[English]

The Chairman: Then we can do everything.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: That would enable me to travel on Tuesday and arrive at a reasonable hour. It would be easier.

[English]

The Chairman: So we do April 15 and 16. Excellent.

[Translation]

You are very generous.

[English]

Mr. George Proud: Mr. Chairman, are you moving it to another day, one that's there now?

The Chairman: No. What we're going to do—

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Since we're here, couldn't we...

[English]

The Chairman: —is just move April 14. Those are very important witnesses, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Couldn't we see one group on Wednesday night?

[English]

The Chairman: Yes. We could have a working dinner with somebody.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Five to seven.

• 1645

The Committee Clerk: From 5 to 7 P.M.?

[English]

The Chairman: Yes, until 7 o'clock, and then after that we'll go and have a celebration.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: After that, we can go have a quiet supper and get some rest.

[English]

The Chairman: Is that okay with you, Denis?

Mr. Denis Coderre: That's perfect.

[Translation]

I agree with Suzanne that we add another one, perhaps to wrap up, since we're talking about coaching, municipal infrastructures and sponsors. It may be interesting to discuss

[English]

manufacturing and sports from the 4th to the 15th.

The Chairman: Okay.

Mr. George Proud: Are you including the horse racing and the rodeo and that sort of thing?

The Chairman: We're going to try, then, because we would have some extra time on the Wednesday evening. We will try to do everybody and get most of them in on the 15th and 16th. That will break the back of our hearings.

Mr. George Proud: I can't guarantee I'll be here, but I'll try to be.

The Chairman: Okay, well, George, we're going to appeal to you to see if there's a possibility.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Wait a minute. Where are we?

Mr. Denis Coderre: The 14th and the 15th become the 15th and the 16th.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We will add the 16th. To continue in the same vein, we could add the evening. We could talk about manufacturing. We would thus examine all sides of the issue. This way, we'd include everything in the two days.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: If we could include this in the two days, I wouldn't have any problem. It would be two heavy days. I would arrive on Tuesday and leave again on Friday morning. That's no problem for me.

[English]

The Chairman: Fair enough; very good.

Mr. George Proud: Mr. Chairman, why does it have to be in that week? Is that the only week they can come?

The Chairman: It's the second week, and yes, it's also to meet our schedule. That gives us two weeks in the month of May, and also it gives us some time. No doubt there will be a couple of other groups—in fact there already are—that will want to come before us. That means we will have covered everyone.

Then we can start to write—and people are starting to write in parallel—some thoughts from some of the recommendations we're receiving, so by the second week in May, we'll start heading into the crunch. I would say we'll have a draft document by the third week in May that we can go over amongst ourselves, and then by the end of the first week in June we can have something we agree on. Then it takes a week for printing.

Mr. George Proud: So it's Wednesday and Thursday?

The Chairman: Yes.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What are the Raptors?

[English]

The Chairman: It's basketball, the NBA.

Mr. Denis Coderre: If we have the Raptors, we should go for the Grizzlies also.

The Chairman: It is actually the NBA. They do both the Raptors and the Grizzlies.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I love the Grizzlies.

The Chairman: It should be NBA. It should read on the forms, “National Basketball Association”.

The Clerk: So the last week in April and the first two weeks in May, are you willing to meet more than once a week, because the only way to get—?

The Chairman: We will be.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: On March 25 there's a question mark for the Olympic Association.

[English]

The Chairman: No, there shouldn't be.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There's a question mark.

The Clerk: Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Is that because you're not sure?

The Clerk: No, they cancelled. They would like to come on April 29.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Ok, wait a moment.

The Clerk: I phoned this morning.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: So we cross out March 25 and put April 25.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We could include another...

[English]

The Chairman: Yes, we'll find somebody else for that period.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: On the 18th, I will have someone replace me because I won't be here.

[English]

The Chairman: You won't be here when?

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: On the 18th, for soccer and lacrosse, I will have someone replace me. I will ask Mr. Plamondon to replace me because I can't be here.

[English]

The Chairman: Okay, very good.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: The 31st, from 11 A.M. to 1 P.M., it's the Heritage Committee.

The Clerk: I made a switch.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Oh, so there will be no sitting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage?

The Clerk: No.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: He'll be back from Florida. When does the baseball season start?

Mr. Denis Coderre: He was only supposed to come back on the 26th. That's why he can't come on the 25th. He will be available on the 31st.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: O.K.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I have a question concerning the Canadian Olympic Association. I want to make sure that Bill Warren will also be there. I have specific questions for him. In addition, Ms. Tremblay went to Nagano, and she has relevant questions to ask the president.

• 1650

[English]

The Chairman: I would imagine that they would expect to have very specific and very interesting questions, both of them.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Thanks.

The Clerk: I spoke with Bill Warren this morning, actually, for something else, and he's reluctant to keep taking time off to keep coming here.

The Chairman: Well, I will give him a call. I'll speak to him and I will suggest to him that the members of the committees have strong views that he be part of the presentation.

Mr. Denis Coderre: It's not a matter of the Bloc Québécois. It's a matter of the committee. I want to ask questions too.

The Chairman: Yes. Can I get a unanimous decision?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chairman: I will personally call him.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Do you know when the Speaker is supposed to receive the Olympic Committee and the athletes? They come to the House to attend a reception for the medal winners.

The Chairman: I do not know.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It seems to me that it would be important for the members of the subcommittee on sports to be there.

[English]

The Chairman: I will ask the Speaker today and we will alert everybody.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Okay.

The Chairman: Very good.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I wonder if it is not March 25th that they are supposed to come. I think it is indeed March 25th that they are to meet with the Speaker.

[English]

The Chairman: Well, we will find out.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Maybe that is why they cancelled.

The Clerk: I will check.

[English]

The Chairman: Are there any other questions?

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: So it is the 15th and 16th. The 14th is gone.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We will do three days' work in two.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I prefer that.

The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay, thank you very much for your co- operation. It is very generous of you.

[English]

The meeting is adjourned.