SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, February 11, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.)): Colleagues, the meeting is called to order.

We welcome three separate groups of witnesses today. We have Triathlon Canada, Non-Federally Funded Olympic Sports, and Athletes CAN.

We'll begin with Triathlon Canada. We welcome Mr. Hallett, Mr. Brunet, and Mr. O'Reilly. I throw the floor open to you, Mr. Hallett.

Mr. William J. Hallett (President, Triathlon Canada): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

You've already introduced my colleagues Mr. Brunet and Mr. O'Reilly. We're here on behalf of Triathlon Canada, which is a national sport-governing body for triathlon in Canada.

Many of you may be wondering just what is a triathlon. Our sport originated in the 1970s as an endurance event, comprising the three most popular sports in the world: swimming, cycling, and running. The sports have evolved and grown at a very large rate, and we will debut at the 2000 Summer Olympic Games in Sydney with full medal status.

Today we'd like to present to you briefly the current status of our sport, the cultural value of the sport in Canada, what we believe are the economic realities that triathletes in Canada face, and how we believe the federal government's involvement should help Canadian triathletes.

Our current status is this. Triathlon Canada is a national federation. It is recognized by the Canadian Olympic Association; however, we see no federal funding from the federal government via Sport Canada. Unlike other unfunded Olympic sports and disciplines, though, our federation has never enjoyed recognition or financial support from Sport Canada. Until 1996 the international success of triathletes was achieved primarily by accessing internal resources, that of parents and other parties, and while those deep pockets were never deep enough, with the addition of our sport to the Olympic program it has now become virtually impossible for us to effectively compete with government-financed national federations elsewhere in the world.

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Canada has enjoyed a pre-eminent role in the development of our sport internationally. The current president of the International Triathlon Union is a Canadian, Mr. Les McDonald. Mr. McDonald has also been the driving force behind the inclusion of our sport in the Olympics.

Canadians chair three ITU committees, and we sit on seven of ten ITU committees in total. Triathlon Canada was a founding member of the international federation.

Despite our lack of adequate financial resources, Canada's teams at international competitions have been very visible. Canadians also have an influential role in place in the international development of the sport, and we would like to retain that status.

Mr. Norman O'Reilly (National Team Manager, Triathlon Canada): Next we'll address the cultural value of triathlon in Canada.

Triathlon Canada, made up of our provincial federations, had over 4,400 full-time members in 1997. We estimate that over 10,000 more Canadians participated in at least one event during that year.

Our members are aged 6 to 82. Most participants in the triathlon are out with the “do the distance” or “every finisher is a winner” attitude. These attitudes are very prevalent in the triathlon subculture.

Many schools across the country now include triathlon as part of their school curriculum in their physical education programs. We are also fostering the development of a club system across the country. For example, in Quebec there are now over 20 officially recognized triathlon clubs. We believe these clubs provide all of us with training and a social atmosphere for triathletes.

In our opinion triathlon promotes a healthy lifestyle. Triathletes are typically individuals who practise this health lifestyle, cognizant of good nutrition as well as the benefits of exercise and physical activity.

Triathletes are often considered to be overachievers, because they manage in their lives all of these aspects that I've mentioned.

An increased exposure of the sport through the success of Canadians at the Olympic Games and other international competitions would certainly help inspire other Canadians to live this healthy lifestyle and would draw participants to our sport.

We also believe triathlon offers an educational value to Canadians. Often an individual who becomes involved in triathlon comes from one of the three specific sports that make up the event. This means that a swimmer must learn the aspects of cycling and running—all three must be combined.

Gaining a knowledge of these new sports and meeting athletes from these other competitive sports will provide an educational experience for a triathlete.

[Translation]

Mr. Patrice Brunet (Director, Triathlon Canada): I will continue in French. In terms of the economic reality of triathlon in Canada, the fact is that every Canadian elite triathlete must overcome considerable financial challenges if he hopes to be successful on the international scene.

It is the International Federation which set qualification standards for the Olympic Games in the year 2000. Only 50 men and 50 women will be taking part in this event in the Sydney Olympics in the year 2000. As you know, 197 countries participated in the 1996 Olympics.

World rankings are determined by the athlete's performance on the World Coup circuit and at the world championships. It is very expensive to travel to these various events, which take place in the four corners of the world.

In order to be competitive at this level, an athlete needs the best equipment, the best coaches and adequate medical support and training facilities.

Many of our athletes achieving the highest levels of international success have to work full time. They have to compte head on against athletes who are able to train full time and are funded directly by their national sport system.

For example, Triathlon Australia receives approximately $1 million a year to fund its triathlon and development programs.

Triathlon Canada depends almost entirely on its volunteer structure to support its athletes. Triathlon Canada has no full time employees. The national office is located in the basement of the president's home.

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However, thanks to the work of our volunteer marketing committee, about 20 000 $ in funding was obtained in 1997 from private sources. But this amount is not adequate to meet our needs. This money, together with the contribution of the Canadian Olympic Association and entrance fees for our various national competitions, is the only money available to Triathlon Canada to help our national team.

In 1991, Canadian women triathlete were the best in the world. Our team won gold and silver medals at the world championships. However, the picture has changed considerably today. As we prepare to enter our first Olympics in the year 2000, the rest of the world has already left us behind. We are unable to support our athletes at a time when their needs are increasing. Our resources remain unchanged despite the fact that our athletes should be able to count us in order to remain competitive internationally.

In France, for example, there is a national training site for triathletes in Montpellier. with full time coaches and support staff on the spot. Germany, France, Great Britain, Australia and Spain offer significant financial support directly to their national athletes. At the moment we cannot compete with those federations and see no short term solution without an increase in funding.

[English]

Mr. William Hallett: Triathlon Canada is one of a number of Olympic sports that is not supported by Sport Canada, as I've said before. This puts us at a distinct disadvantage when attempting to access the necessary resources for our athletes. Currently our primary source of financial support is the quadrennial grant paid annually from the Canadian Olympic Association, a grant we began to receive only in 1997. This grant, however, is based upon the results at the Olympic Games, Pan American Games, and world championships. Since triathlon will make its debut at the 2000 Olympic Games, Canadian athletes have been limited in their ability to demonstrate that the triathlon is deserving of funding. Sport Canada could provide the resources to enable our athletes to succeed on the international stage, as well as further develop athlete and participation programs.

We rely on volunteers primarily, and the amount of free time that those volunteers can devote to our sport is limited. Financial considerations limit our ability to develop training centres, coaches, and successful international competitors. We are only able to send a limited, partially funded team to world cup events, which decreases the opportunities for our athletes to achieve the international standards required to compete at the Olympics and other multi-sport competitions.

Heritage Minister Copps recently stated that when one of our athletes succeeds on the world stage, all Canadians from every walk of life and every corner of our nation share in that victory. Triathlon has the capability to provide this visibility. A Canadian female, Carol Montgomery, won a bronze medal at the 1996 world championships and is a multiple winner on the world cup circuit. Montreal-born Andrew MacMartin was the overall winner of the men's world cup in 1994. Canadian triathletes brought home four medals from the 1995 Pan American Games.

With only 50 men and 50 women allowed to participate in the inaugural Olympic triathlon, the Canadians who qualify there will be very visible in a limited field. The question that we have to ask ourselves is whether we will qualify any Canadians. The fact that the women's triathlon is a new event and is the opening event of the 2000 Olympics will also offer significant increased visibility for our sport.

[Translation]

Mr. Patrice Brunet: In conclusion, the triathlon is a sport which has an intrinsic cultural value in Canada. The triathlon has the potential to offer Canadians international results of which we could all be proud. Canadian triathletes have always been among the best in the world, and we are working every day to make that a reality again.

The 1999 Pan-american Games, the 2000 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games provide triathletes with an opportunity to show everyone how successful they can be on the international scene. Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

We'll go to questions right away.

Mr. O'Brien, would you like to begin.

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Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the presentation, gentlemen. It's been indicated that this will be a full medal sport in Sydney in 2000. Has there been a request directly to Sport Canada or any other government agency for funding? I'll start with that.

Mr. William Hallett: We submitted under the sport accountability framework in 1995 I believe, or 1996, prior to my becoming president. At that time Sport Canada would not review our submission because we failed to meet one of their primary tests, that being the submission of four years of audited financial statements to accompany the submission.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: What year was that, sir?

Mr. William Hallett: I believe it was 1995.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Okay. Mr. Chairman, it just seems to me that if we're going to have athletes wearing the maple leaf at this kind of competition, they ought to be funded. I for one have no problem, speaking as an individual MP, in saying that I believe you should reapply as forcefully as possible and as soon as possible. I just wanted to make that point.

I know that Mr. O'Reilly has done some, and by the look of the other gentlemen here, they may well be triathletes themselves. I'd like to get an athlete's perspective on this a little bit. What are one or two competitions that you would have participated in over the last 12 months or couple of years, Mr. O'Reilly?

Mr. Norman O'Reilly: I can answer that generally, using an athlete's point of view. There are not many triathletes in Canada at the professional level, and most of them also have to work in other jobs, as Patrice mentioned. They need other means to make money so they can travel around the world.

We have three teams that go to world championships around the world, and we fund them as best as we possibly can, but we cannot cover all the costs, so athletes are forced on their own. On top of their training schedule, their nutrition, they're forced to go out to approach sponsors and to try to get donations from local communities.

It's very difficult for an athlete to maintain a level of training at the elite level for a triathlon combining three sports, which requires three coaches, and you can go on and on—three levels of nutrition. For example, I raced at the world championships in Nice last June.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: You did?

Mr. Norman O'Reilly: I did, personally. As for the cost, you're looking at a flight to Nice, of travelling to Nice. You have to acclimatize prior to the event. The nature of a triathlon is that it's an endurance event, so you want to be in that situation for a number of days prior to your event.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: So ballpark, what would it have cost you for that competition?

Mr. Norman O'Reilly: For an athlete to prepare properly, it would probably be in the neighbourhood of $4,000 or $5,000, and you're looking at a world cup team. We would have hopefully six men and six women competing around the world, so it's very costly for us.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Thanks for giving us a picture of that. I'll pass at this point, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): I would like to begin by congratulating the Association for its excellent presentation in both languages, in the way the brief was written and also in its appearance.

Last week, we heard from some economists about the economic impact of sports. In your view, should an athlete be considered as a government employee?

When an athlete competes, should we consider that he or she is doing so for their country, for themselves or for their federation? How do you see their role? You talk about the cultural aspect. I appreciate that the triathlon requires an enormous amount of work. Therefore, how do you perceive that issue?

I have one other question I would like to ask later.

[English]

You're thinking of the answer—thank you.

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Mr. William Hallett: I think our federation looks at this as all of the parties you mentioned benefiting from the participation of triathletes internationally. I don't think we, or athletes in general, look at themselves as being just a representative of their federation, the government, their municipality or their country. I think they do it for a variety of reasons, but primarily the reason is personal. It's to achieve a specific goal. The fact that their goal and success is recognized by support from their government and their country enables them to continue on in their personal development.

[Translation]

Mr. Patrice Brunet: If I may, I would like to follow up on that answer. I believe that the federal government must also keep in mind the role an athlete plays when he or she is visible to the general public.

We have to appreciate that the triathlon is a very far- reaching sport. It is accessible to everyone. As mentioned in the presentation, the triathlon is now taught in a large number of schools; it is part of the physical education program. It is very important that we be able to see our athlete, a model athlete, performing on the international stage. That encourages young people and people of all ages to take part in this sport.

You asked whether the athlete should be considered as a government employee. I believe that if that were the case, there wouldn't be any triathletes today because they all fund themselves; they receive no money at all from the government.

What is more important, and the federal government must clearly understand this, is the role that athletes play in terms of the general public.

Mr. Denis Coderre: That is why I asked that question. What I am going to say to you applies to any government, whatever its political stripe. I always have the impression that, when an athlete is financially supported, he is funded insofar as he or she wins medals. In my view many athletes are unfairly treated because it is considered always to be better to invest in someone who has already won something. But if we really believe in the triathlon, or in swimming, we will put money into those federations so as to boost their appeal and provide them with a more developed infrastructure or, at least, the tool they need to work.

It was with that in mind that I asked whether athletes should be considered as government employees. In your view, should we be focussing on broad public participation or on the elite? Or should the answer simply be neither completely one nor the other? Should there be a balance between the two?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: In my view, they are interconnected. To do otherwise is—and I am not saying that you are suggesting this—to show tunnel vision. They are both connected. I believe that the elite athlete performing on the international scene stimulates people at the grassroots level. To see things otherwise is...

I would just like to mention that we are talking here strictly about the triathlon. The triathlon is a very accessible sport. We're not talking about promoting elite athletes in a sport which is practised by 2,000 people in Canada. As we said, there are over 10,000. Therefore, they should try at least one every year.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I would just digress for a moment.

Mr. Patrice Brunet: Yes.

[English]

Mr. Denis Coderre: Should we invest in the sport, in the federation or in the athlete?

Mr. William Hallett: I think you should invest in the federation because the federation knows how best to support particular athletes. We make every attempt to recycle whatever financial resources come to our organization for the betterment of our athletes and the visibility of those athletes. As Mr. Brunet has said, it's difficult to determine whether the international athletes or the grassroots development programs are more important, because they're complementary, they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, the visibility gained by promoting an international athlete encourages grassroots participation, which then requires more financial resources to continue with support and development.

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[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: I have one last question. We have all seen horror stories in some federations. I don't know Triathlon Canada. How can you assure us that your selection criteria are adequate to ensure an appropriate number—and I will choose my words carefully—of Francophones, and on what do you base those criteria? Do you have regional criteria to ensure that if the federal government were to fund you, French-speaking athletes would have fair and equal access?

[English]

Mr. William Hallett: Our federation is supportive of all athletes across Canada. We encourage participation from every region. In order to encourage participation, our guidelines for qualification for national teams recognizes the regionality of Canada. We have qualifying events in Quebec, and we will have one this year. We have our national championships in Manitoba this year. In 1990 and 1994, our Canadian triathlon championships were held in Montreal.

We're looking for the best triathletes and we want to ensure that our team is representative of all of the regions of our country, but we are still looking for the best to represent us. If the best are all from Ontario, then that is the reality. Unfortunately for us, all the best are from B.C. right now, and that is a measure of the weather. That weather draws some competitors there for extended periods of training. We certainly want to encourage participation and development across the country and give equal opportunity to everyone.

[Translation]

Mr. Patrice Brunet: You also have to understand...

Mr. Denis Coderre: How do you feel as a Francophone?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: How do I feel? I feel fine and I'll explain why. In the triathlon, there is obviously a selection process for elite athletes and a process for members of the national team. At the elite level, Triathlon Canada exerts absolutely no control; everything is controlled by the international federation. Therefore, I won't even answer that because there is no point in doing so. As regards the make up of the national team, that is based on age groups: 30-34. 35-39, et cetera. I must stress that Triathlon Canada is doing a good job and did a good job in the past. I hope it will continue to do so. If the past is any assurance of the future, the job will be well done.

For example, two years ago, Triathlon Québec, the provincial organization, had not applied for certification to hold a race in Quebec for the selection of the national team. Even though the deadline had expired, the person responsible for the committee contacted Triathlon Québec and took the initiative to find out whether a race had been solicited. For them, it was important that there be a selection race in Quebec.

The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): I would like to add my voice to that of Mr. Coderre in congratulating you for your presentation. I apologize for my late arrival. Something beyond my control came up at the last minute.

I would like to understand a little bit better. It might be because I missed part of your presentation. You said that it is the international federation that looked after the elite and that you didn't want to talk about it. What do the elites do? Is it they who represent us at the Olympics or is it the national team?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: In fact, with the triathlon and also with some other federations, over the next few years, we will see the international federations progressively take over the selection criteria for participation in the Olympics and the Pan-American Games.

For example, at the Olympic Games in the year 2000, 50 men and 50 women will participate. If 197 countries participate in the Games, it will not be possible to give a place to each country, otherwise we will go well beyond 300%. Therefore, it is the international federation that will decide who will participate. It will ask the national federation whether a person is a full member. It will also ask the Canadian Olympic Association if the basic criteria have been met.

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Essentially, if an athlete, whether he is from Quebec, Ontario or the United States, has not been selected by the international federation, the national federation won't be able to do anything in such circumstances, its hands will be tied.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I think it is very easy to find in many places the necessary infrastructures to train for swimming or running. It is much more difficult to do so with cycling. It is difficult to train for cycling in the middle of winter, given our winters.

France has in Montpellier facilities and permanent coaches. That's in southern France where it is nice and warm all year round. Would it be possible for you to sign contracts with countries where the temperature is warmer? Could that be a way of helping you train your athletes? We could allow partnerships with other countries. For example, we could send our athletes to southern Florida to train for cycling.

Mr. Patrice Brunet: Thank you for asking me the question and opening the door. As a matter of fact, just yesterday I received a call from a Canadian elite athlete from Newfoundland, Isabelle Turcotte, who was asking me whether I had access to Montpellier. I must say that I have some contacts in foreign countries, including France, for Montpellier. The French triathlon federation has always been quite open in that respect. I cannot say that 50 athletes could have access, but they told us that we could send our athletes who will have to pay about $20 per day for food. However, France will pay for their coaches. So yes, for us, it is possible. Now, Isabelle must buy her own plane ticket and pay $20 per day for food. That's her problem.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: But we have to think about what it would cost us to set up such facilities and infrastructures where they could train. These facilities could be used not only by triathlon athletes, but also by cycling athletes, because this is also a discipline in the Olympics.

Mr. Brunet, your colleague said that the money should go to the federations. Like Mr. Coderre, I think we have to be very careful to make sure that athletes are not discriminated against by the federation. We have to make sure that everyone is treated fairly. We had that experience in Quebec with Mario Lemieux whom the federation didn't consider good enough to play hockey, and we also have the case of Mr. Harvey. He was coaching in Europe, but as he hadn't taken part in Canadian competitions, he couldn't be selected. That kind of thing is very dangerous.

Therefore, if we send athletes to train in other countries, we have to make sure that they will be able to enter competitions through which they can qualify. I imagine that such competitions are exclusively Canadian. What is the process for qualifying as an elite athlete when you are selected by the national team?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: To attain the elite level?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

Mr. Patrice Brunet: You have to take part in the international federation's World Cup circuit. You also have to participate in the world championships. Basically it is through world ranking, in accordance with the criteria of the international federation.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: When someone does the world circuit, how much travelling is involved? Is it like Formula 1, with events on every continent taking place every two weeks? Is that what it's like?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: Yes. I would ask my colleague to answer that.

[English]

Mr. William Hallett: Currently 10 world cup events are scheduled for 1998, but additional world cup events are a possibility. They will be starting in Australia and moving to New Zealand and then to Japan. There is one scheduled for North America. The only one in North America is in Corner Brook, Newfoundland. Then they will be going to Europe. As you can see, we cover the entire globe. The cost of qualifying an athlete for the Olympic Games, just for travel alone, is very high.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Have you estimated how much that might cost an athlete to do every event? And how much time does that take? He can't do anything else at the same time. He can't work. He has to train between competitions, look after his health and what he eats, etc. They probably have special diets which are monitored by doctors. How does that work exactly?

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[English]

Mr. William Hallett: We have done a preliminary budget on what it would cost to properly finance our world cup team in order to give them the opportunities to qualify at world cup events and also to provide them with a nominal living allowance while they were travelling and in competition. We believe this price would be somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000 per annum, solely for that team. And that would be a base level.

We would be looking at anywhere between 8 and 10 athletes, 4 or 5 men and 4 or 5 women, to participate on a regular basis. That team we consider to be a reasonable size.

The Australian world cup team is larger. They have more resources. They can bring more people to more events and they can qualify or tap their personnel better in order to develop their athletes to a competitive level internationally.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I have one small question to make sure I clearly understand some parts of your brief. You tell us that Canadian triathletes perform well, that they are outstanding. Also, the sport will be an Olympic event for the first time in year 2000. Therefore, to date you have only world championships and the World Cup circuit to which you referred. Is that correct?

Mr. Patrice Brunet: And the Pan-American Games.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: The Pan-American Games.

Mr. Patrice Brunet: Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Therefore, there was no triathlon in the Canada Games which took place last summer in Brandon, Manitoba? Were you there?

[English]

Mr. William Hallett: We made an application for status as a sport at the Canada Games level and were denied.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I'm sorry?

[English]

The Chairman: And what was the reason for that?

Mr. William Hallett: I can't really provide you with the reason at this point in time. I can certainly offer the information at a later date. Unfortunately, I was not the president at the time the application was made. As I recall, the primary reason was that the sport was not practised widely enough for inclusion in that particular games.

An hon. member: Did you reapply?

Mr. William Hallett: We did not reapply to—

The Chairman: Before we move to our next witness, did you want to have a couple of final questions, Mr. O'Brien?

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Following on from my colleague, Madame Tremblay, I'm almost shocked to hear what you just said. I'd like to see whatever documentation you could come up with. Would you provide it to this committee.

I can tell you that the 2001 Canada Summer Games will be held in my home city of London, Ontario. As well as the whole country being welcome, it would be very nice to see Mr. O'Reilly and other outstanding athletes like him from Quebec and from every province performing in our city.

I'd like to see the rationale and I want to encourage you not to give up. You have a very valid case for funding and certainly for being part of the Canada Summer Games. You've already said you're going to compete at the 2000 games in Sydney. What's at work here is a little illogical it would seem to me, Mr. Chairman. I think this committee might be able to play a useful role.

Thank you for your presentation and I look forward to more information from you.

The Chairman: Mr. O'Reilly is next.

Mr. John O'Reilly (Victoria—Haliburton, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to go on record here and not intimidate anyone, having the same name as one of the people who are here.

An hon. member: Are you a triathlete?

Mr. John O'Reilly: I am not a triathlete.

An hon. member: You don't look it to me.

The Chairman: This is a terrific celebration. We have a father and son in the same committee but on opposite sides.

Mr. John O'Reilly: That's right.

I wanted to point out that I didn't have anything particular to add today, other than that I know Mr. O'Reilly lives in Mr. Hallett's basement in the summer. He lives in my home in the winter and attends Ottawa University.

The Chairman: Would you like to ask the committee any tough questions?

Mr. John O'Reilly: I just wondered how much of that $4,000 was his. No, I'm just kidding.

I didn't want to intimidate anyone at the table or show a bias. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to sit here and give you a little bit of history.

The Chairman: Our pleasure.

We're all here trying to be constructive. We celebrate the energy that the witnesses have put forward today in this great sport. I'm shocked, to be honest with you, that you have almost 5,000 members across Canada. That's a large group.

I have two questions.

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Corporations are always looking for new sports properties. This is the jargon they use in the marketing divisions of the beer companies, the juice companies, whatever. What has your experience been when you've gone to the major corporate sponsors to talk about the triathlete program for Canada?

Mr. William Hallett: This year we initiated a comprehensive program to approach corporate sponsors, and we tried to do it from scratch. We prepared all our documentation. We solicited the advice of a marketing agency. We put together a package. We researched a number of firms. We identified them in particular sectors so that we could attach a particular sector to our team without creating a conflict for all the financial people.

We made three or four major pitches to fifteen to twenty corporations across Canada. Generally they've been well received. The corporations are interested. They certainly have not told us to go away and not come back; however, they have yet to take that first step forward and embrace us. They think we offer the kinds of things that are marketable to their clients and to Canadians and they like the idea, but they have yet to really take a step forward and offer us something tangible.

The Chairman: I think it would be useful for our committee if you could send in to our clerk, Ms. Beverly Isles—your wish list or dream list of the four or five top recommendations for this committee to enlist our support for your development. We would like to hear it in a more formal “we recommend”. We're not guaranteeing that we'll support them all, but we'd like to hear them in a very specific way. We'll discuss them at the end, before we hear our final brief today. Hopefully, some of those recommendations will be in the final document. We'll build from there.

Mr. William Hallett: Last year we prepared a strategic plan, setting out our objectives. We then went ahead with an action plan to reach those particular strategic objectives.

The Chairman: Well, we'd like four or five short recommendations so that we can get the ball rolling. Send it in and it'll be part of our appendix.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: As part of that, the witness mentioned audited statements having been a problem in the past. Have you overcome that problem?

Mr. William Hallett: In response to that, I happen to be a chartered accountant, so it was quite an embarrassment to find out after the fact that the reason we were rejected was that we did not provide audited financial statements. As of this year we have four years of audited financial statements to our year end of March 31, 1997. Providing that particular criterion isn't changed in the future, we will meet it.

The Chairman: Mr. Hallett, the best triathlon in the world, on a regular basis, is where?

Mr. William Hallett: I don't know what you mean by that.

The Chairman: The one that gets the most attention, the most support, the most television time. Is it in Australia, or is it the one in France?

Mr. William Hallett: I think the best known triathlon is the one that started triathlon, which is the Iron Man competition held in Hawaii; however, that competition is limited in that it is really an ultra-endurance event. It limits the number of participants.

The event that certainly attracts the most attention now for our particular federation is the world championships. They were held last year in Perth, Australia: the World Triathlon Championships.

The Chairman: Well, I'll tell you why I raised this. In the 1950s, 1960s, the 1970s, and the early 1980s around this town, if you presented an idea that had a social benefit to community and country, automatically you received financial support. In the last ten to twelve years there has been a shift in the language to what kind of an economic impact do you provide to community and country if you are going to get some support from the treasury.

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We're therefore appealing to many people in sport across Canada today. When you bring your sport sector before us, try to give us as much of an economic impact— You can use an example like the one in Perth. When properly developed, this has all kinds of economic impact. I can remember seeing the one in Hawaii; they said it gathered attention from all over the world. There were tourism dollars involved. It seems that this town—for me anyway, and I'm not speaking for the committee—regrettably is a little less sensitive to social impact and much more sensitive to the economic impact. We would ask you to try to include any information you might be able to find from other examples in your recommendations and brief.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I have a brief request, Mr. Chairman. We've got an active triathlete here, Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. O'Reilly, how many have you competed in? Can we get a profile of one of your athletes? What has that person's career been, experiences, where has that person competed, what kind of money did he or she have to lay out, raise through the family, or whatever? How many would you have competed in yourself?

Mr. Norman O'Reilly: I started one of our programs, the KIDS OF STEEL triathlon program, which is now nationwide and attracts kids. At the age of six, you can compete. That's where I got involved. We also sponsor a a town identification program, which happens around Canada. I've done over 100 events. I think it would be similar for other athletes.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: That's great.

Mr. Norman O'Reilly: Once they get to athlete level, they may be doing between eight and fifteen events a year and peaking for specific events. They compete in a few in their local area and then go out and do some world cups in an attempt to qualify for the world championship, as we mentioned.

The Chairman: I think it would also be very useful to pursue Madame Tremblay's idea, the notion of assisting high-performance athletes in moving to regions or climates in which they can get added training in that sort of environment. We think of the warm weather, but maybe there are ways within the Travel Canada envelope by which we can move some of our athletes to Victoria. We've got a big envelope for supporting that kind of event right now, and maybe there's a way we can weave it into giving a push to Vancouver.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: As you know, the Ottawa-Paris or Ottawa-Montpellier trip is less expensive than Ottawa-Vancouver.

Mr. Patrice Brunet: That should be discussed with the Department of Transport.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much for coming. You did a great job. We're going to move to Lori Johnstone as our next witness, so that we can help her move on time to her flight home tonight.

The name of your organization is Athletes CAN. The floor is yours, Lori. Welcome.

Ms. Lori Johnstone (Chair, Athletes CAN): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I'd like to explain briefly what Athletes CAN is.

Athletes CAN is the Athletes Association of Canada, and we represent all national team athletes in Canada. We are the only independent athletes association in the world of amateur sport. We represent athletes who compete in all sports, including the Olympic and Pan American Games, the Paralympics, the Commonwealth Games, the North America Indigenous Games, and the various world championships.

The athlete representative from triathlon was at our last athletes forum. We hold a forum every year, and athlete representatives from all the national team sports attend that forum.

Our mission is to work with others in leadership, advocacy, and education. We are trying to make the sport system a better place for athletes.

I circulated a quote before, and it's a brief quote, but it says that those responsible for leadership and decision making in sport must include the athletes, both in defining the needs and goals and in determining how to meet them. For example, the athlete should be an active subject in and not the object of sporting programs. So we as athletes try to promote involvement of athletes in fora such as this, but also within our national sport organizations and within the lives of our athletes.

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It doesn't take much effort to see the attention that's being placed on athletes because of the Nagano Winter Olympics right now. It's very exciting. There's a lot of interest and emotion. At the send-off in Calgary, Minister Copps thanked the athletes for letting us share the dream. These athletes are representing our nation and we are sharing in their successes and their failures, their disappointments, joys and controversies.

But what is the dream we're sharing in? We are pursuing excellence as athletes. We are role models for youth. We are symbols of achievement and we encourage athletes and citizens to do the best they can in whatever field they happen to be doing it in. If it's kids at school, we try to encourage them to be the best they can be. The spirit of sport that the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport promotes, and the commercials that are on TV these days....

Talking about athletes, several surveys have come out recently. The most recent one was circulated by Sport Canada: The Status of the High Performance Athlete in Canada: Final Report. It was released in 1997. It says that more than two-thirds of nationally carded amateur athletes view their involvement in high-performance sport as a way of life. That is, it is a personal passion that is not necessarily related to material rewards but to non-material rewards. Over 90% of athletes believe their involvement in sport has enhanced their overall quality of life. They're very dedicated to the choices they make, and they make lots of sacrifices.

In terms of sacrifices, the cost question was asked earlier—the cost of pursuing the dream. Elite-level athletes can incur as much as $10,000 per year with their national team dream. When you combine that with the income that most amateur national team athletes make, which tends to be under $15,000, it's a powerful statement about their willingness to make sacrifices to pursue the dream.

The rewards are wonderful and we obtain much from sport. There's no doubt about it, but when when surveyed, the amount of income derived from their involvement in sport is still a source of dissatisfaction. More specifically, the amount of athlete assistance is a sore point among many amateur athletes, who believe the government has an obligation to support Canadian sport and that they, as high-performance athletes, are not provided with the income required to reach their maximum potential.

We recognize that the federal government invests a considerable amount in sport—it's very significant—and with good reason. Sport is a public good. It is the expression of our culture, of our national unity and our strength. It also provides Canada with many economic benefits, as well as social.

One study released by Sport Nova Scotia talks about the impact that sporting events can have, and that sport has. For example, the 1987 Canada Games, which were held in Cape Breton, generated $1.8 million in salaries, $9.5 million in upgrading and construction of facilities, $1 million in products and supplies, and visitors and athletes spent an estimated $800,000 on food and lodging. The long-term benefits to Nova Scotia were estimated to be more than $30 million. So the numbers are there and there are some surveys, although there's not a lot of information like that to show the impact.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Will you be tabling that for the committee?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: It's not part of that. I just received it.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Would you give us the information?

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I can provide a copy of that.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Merci.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I'm sorry I did not have that one available. I just received it before the presentation.

Carded athletes receive money through the Athlete Assistance Program and Services. I believe there are just under 1,000 athletes who are carded at a variety of levels. Minister Copps recently announced an additional 300 cards, with the focus being on developmental athletes. That is a substantial contribution—$10 million per year for the next five years going to direct support of athletes, and indirectly to training and competitions and coaching, so we recognize that there is support there.

At the same time, there are several issues to be addressed, and that's what I would like to focus on.

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As I mentioned, athletes believe they're not supported effectively, especially athletes whose sports do not receive funding and are not part of the carding system or part of the sport funding accountability framework. In our 1997 study we found that athletes admitted they were living on less than $15,000 a year, which is quite inconsiderable. Of the athletes who are currently carded, two-thirds are living on less than $15,000 per year, and that's with federal funding. We're being asked to win the medals, but it's very difficult to do that. There are a lot of costs associated with that, and those costs vary depending on the sport.

Another survey we recently did with Athletes CAN said basically the same thing. They wanted direct support—the things the minister had given support for. They wanted direct support for athletes, training, competition and coaching. But the big one that's missing, and some of my colleagues will speak to this, is that athletes who do not receive federal funding are falling through the cracks.

We have started these wonderful multi-sport or national training centres across Canada. There are four currently—in Victoria, Calgary, Winnipeg and Montreal—and they're looking at one in the maritimes and one in Toronto. We've been trying for that one for quite awhile. Unfortunately, to access those facilities you are supposed to be a carded athlete. That's wonderful for our carded athletes—we represent them as well—but it's the non-carded athletes who are falling through the gaps. They are the ones who, even more than the athletes we have reports on, need the support.

Under the current sport funding accountability framework, approximately 38 sports receive funding, so athletes in those 38 sports would have access to a carding amount. Other sports may have some money through sponsors, but others don't. But these athletes do not have access to the athlete assistance program, which means they also don't have access to tuition grants through that program. They do not have access to other services and programs, and they really don't have access to the training centres, which we are saying is the way to train our athletes. We believe wholeheartedly in the training centres, but they have to be accessible to all national team athletes and developmental athletes. We don't want them to have to slip through the back door, which is currently the case if you're not one of the chosen few.

The Chairman: That's shocking.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: It is shocking. We were at the Olympic academy this summer and one person said he had suggested to an athlete who was training at a university to put on a university varsity sweater so that he'd be able to get into the training facility. That's almost what has to happen for some of these athletes, because they don't receive funding and they don't receive support. So we feel that these are serious obstacles.

When we talk about whether a sport is a high-performance sport or there is mass participation—these are part of the criteria that give sports their funding—we sometimes miss the point, because there are athletes in sports that are not as high profile, that don't have as many participants, but we share in their victories all the same. When we're talking about the value to sport, sometimes it's not about mass participation, it's about fulfilling the dream, about pursuing excellence. So there's more than just how many thousands of Canadians participate. Certainly there has to be some kind of critical mass—we acknowledge that—for federal funding. But there has to be more recognition of those athletes who are falling through the cracks, as I mentioned before.

When we talk about the links between professional and amateur sport, in many ways they're two distinct systems that don't often interact for many sports. It's wonderful that the hockey players are at these Olympics, and they're as excited as everyone else. They're calling it the tournament of the century. It's wonderful for them to be able to cross paths with amateur athletes who don't have any of the recognition that our hockey players do. What's special about it is that they're sharing a common dream. We don't all make thousands and thousands of dollars, but there are so many things that we share. The vision and the passion is one of them, as is the dedication and the hard work.

When we talk about professional sport and its effect on amateur sport, there are career paths for some people, and coaching is an area that is receiving more attention these days. However, amateur sport is only a developmental system for professional leagues for very few sports, and almost exclusively for men. So that certainly has some limitations.

• 1640

There is also a lack of opportunities for Canadians that leads them to other countries, such as in Europe, for example, where they'll pursue professional careers. Recently I tried to get hold of a water polo player, but she was in Italy training with a professional team so that she can get the experience she needs to compete.

In most cases there are few professional opportunities for these athletes who invest 10, 15 or 20 years of their lives and receive federal funding. At the end of their careers there's often no way for them to contribute back to the system, and that has to change.

Coaching is one alternative. Many athletes pursue careers in physical education or other teaching degrees. They also pursue professional degrees, whether as physiotherapists or engineers, but mostly professional careers, as well as sales, services and entrepreneurship, because these are skill sets they learn as athletes. It's not a one-sided investment in Canada. Athletes, through their experiences, contribute and learn many skills that will help them contribute to society in different ways, and not just as role models and poster people. There is so much more to them.

On the Tuesday evening broadcast of the Inside Edge, which is Brian Williams on CBC—he interviewed Kathy Kreiner. She was talking about the legacy of the Calgary Olympics and how ten years ago they predicted the success we are now having with speedskating. Ten years later in the men's 500, we had number two, three, four and five. We have world-class medal contenders in many sports. Some of them are able to meet their dreams because they get the support they need.

We have many other athletes who are not getting that support and we don't know how they would do. We haven't realized it, but we've proven in sports that receive support that we can do it. So if we open the doors there's no telling how many of those medals we could have.

She said the success is coming because it's similar to the European models. It provides the facilities, the coaching, the programs and the services, but most importantly, the support. We need to look at the infrastructure. Athletes are asking for bricks and mortar. It's wonderful that someone coordinates a program, and we need that. Development is essential because without development our high-performance programs will end within a few years in terms of the kind of success we've achieved in the past. We need to have it go right from grassroots to the elite.

Creating this stream is essential to getting results. It's a systems approach to looking at the problem. Rather than isolating it or providing band-aid solutions—we'll fix it here, we'll fix it there—it looks at the entire system and how we create a feeder system that works at the developmental level and prepares young athletes to excel on international stages. So a systems approach is very important along, as is studying successful alternative models.

Madame Tremblay spoke to this earlier. Look at the national training centres in other countries, and look at successful models. Australia has done amazing things with their program. Obviously they invest a lot of money in their sport program, but there are successful models that we could implement with our national training centres.

Open up the doors so that the national team athletes have access. Without access we put money in but it is not used effectively. We say we're putting in the money, why aren't we getting the results? It has to be spent effectively. How do we do that? We involve athletes in the process. We involve them at every step along the way, including in decision making. We educate the athlete so that he or she can contribute meaningfully.

If you have a river and suddenly you say go swim but they haven't been taught to swim, they'll drown. It's the same thing with athlete leadership. We have to provide athlete leaders with the skills to enable them to contribute meaningfully, and doing so will help us create a more effective sport system.

Lastly, we have a controversy going on right now. A few days ago we celebrated the success of our snowboarder, but right now most of the country is anxiously awaiting to see what will happen—there's a press conference tonight at seven. Several people were talking about that today.

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In 1988—everybody remembers Ben Johnson, remembers the success, the glory and then the disappointment and the shame. Sport in Canada really, really looked at itself. A lot of questions were asked, a lot of studies were done. Everybody is anxious to have results now, to do something. But it's possible we may need to re-examine some of the decisions that have been made, specifically relating to the sport funding accountability framework. It may or may not be the most effective structure for supporting sport in Canada.

On our way in, one of the guards was saying, hey, about that snowboarder, gee, they might take that medal away. Over and over we feel we have to justify amateur sport in Canada. We all feel it's part of our passion, and we all share it. More than anything, it's something that can unite Canadians from one coast to the other.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Lori. That was a terrific job.

Madame Tremblay, would you like to begin?

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: You have made quite a few points. Thank you for your excellent presentation. I didn't have time to write them all down. I wrote down as much as possible, but I would need a little time to think about everything you told us.

I wonder what the coach's role is for an athlete. Ms. Copps announced a program. I was looking at the figures and noted that a large proportion of the money was going to coaches. Obviously, if they are to be employed full time they have to be offered good salaries, etc.

Since your association represents athletes, should they have their input in the choice of coaches and, if that is what they want, should they be able to express their viewpoint about the coaches given to them?

I would willingly agree that the athlete has an idea of the sport he or she is practising, but usually the coach has practised it before them. I can see that with good coaches you can produce good athletes, but I'm not always sure of the reverse, namely that good athletes are able to choose the best coaches.

How do you see this problem of choosing the coach?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: It's a very good question. We have in the past year initiated a program with the professional Coaching Association of Canada called the athlete-coach covenant. We are looking at how we can promote the relationship between athletes and coaches, how coaches can develop better coaching relationships with their athletes. It's very exciting work that we've started.

Basically there are a couple of different ways to approach that. First of all, we obviously feel that it's a team. Athletes need the guidance, they need the support. The athlete-coach relationship is essential. It's very important for many athletes.

There are a lot of athletes who have made it pretty much on their own, which is kind of sad, because I've talked to many athletes, including a judo player recently, who said “If I had only known 10 years ago what I know now...what a difference it could have made if I had had someone to guide me”.

We think it's essential that there be support for both the athletes and the coaches. It finally feels to many athletes that it's starting to come together. There are sports where they don't even have a coach right now, and that's very sad.

The Chairman: Excuse me. Could you give me an example?

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Actually I think it's white-water canoeing, one of the canoeing— Also, there are the skiing association reps—a skiing team that doesn't have a coach, as well. Those are two examples.

One of the problems is that we haven't been able to pay coaches, so just like the athletes, they've had to pursue other careers. We put incredible demands on them, that we want medals, we want results, and yet we're not giving the support. The support has to be to a team; it's an athlete and a coach. I would include the national sport organizations or the provincial, depending on whose jurisdiction— Provincial generally look after the grassroots development, which is an essential part of it. I can't speak for all associations because they're very different, but the national tends to look after the national team athletes.

A coach doesn't want to be bothered with doing administration. There's too much to do. If you want to coach, you need to coach, you need to work with your athletes.

So I would look at it as a triangle that's interconnected and related. It's essential that we look at it that way. Without that, we're setting ourselves up for failure in the long run.

• 1650

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Am I understanding you correctly? Did you say that it was a good thing that the national hockey team be there, that professionals be there at Nagano? You said it was excellent. Is that what you said?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Professional athletes in what is considered to be an amateur games is a topic for debate. I have personal feelings on it, but certainly I do not have a position from Athletes CAN. We represent the national team athletes. It's very difficult if we get into a definition of what is amateur and what is professional.

It's a thrill for many of the athletes, for both the professional hockey players who are there and the other national team athletes who are there, to be able to interact. We can all gain something positive from that experience.

In Quebec recently they announced a partnering program between some of the hockey players, where they are supporting athletes. It's a wonderful idea. It's something we should be promoting across the country to develop—

The Chairman: Could you explain that a little bit.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Players from the Montreal Canadiens hockey club, such as Damphousse, for example, each decided to sponsor a player or two. That's what they're doing.

The Chairman: A mentor.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: A mentor. They are giving money.

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: As well, though, there are supposed to be phone calls. It's supposed to be much more than just a matter of signing a cheque and saying leave me alone.

It's supposed to be a true mentoring program. It's a wonderful idea. It's very exciting that the hockey players are there because they may realize how important it is to help support those athletes who are struggling.

We're all pursuing the same dream. Some can make a living at it. Most can't.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: If you were to put only 1 per cent of their collective salary, athletes would be doing well.

I have another important question for you, but I am not sure how to ask it. The Games were first held in Athens and then moved to Delphi, because the Athens Games had become so competitive that people were committing suicide and killing one another in order to win. They had people killed. It was terrible. Therefore, the Games were moved to Delphi.

Each participant was given a laurel wreath to clearly signify that they had participated in the Delphi Olympic Games. That also disappeared. It wasn't until Pierre De Coubertin that this was restored just over 100 years ago.

But with all the propaganda, which came perhaps from Eastern block countries, with national anthems, flags, medals... Even here in Parliament there was a reception for medal winners. But the other competitors who didn't win medals were not invited. Only the medal winners were brought here.

Because of the constant emphasis on competition, athletes have been almost forced to take drugs. And then we say that the situation should not be allowed to go on. When we see what is happening today, we have to wonder whether we should have doubts about 50 per cent of the athletes and records set between 1960 and 1990.

I don't know how they are going to assess those athletes. They say that they may perhaps take their medals away. I don't know what they are going to do, but you only have to look at some swimmers for example to see that their physical development, at least in the case of the women, was abnormal. When too much emphasis is placed on competition, propaganda and the desire to win things, the result is what we see at Nagano.

In any event, at the present time there seems to be a problem in the Canadian delegation, more specifically perhaps in the Quebec delegation, since a number of people who were expected to have won medals, did not. They are tired. Perhaps it's because of the time lag, the mountains, I am not sure, or perhaps because there is too much pressure on them to win and come back with a bronze, silver or gold medal. This attitude could be the death of the Games.

In my view, with the arrival of professional sports and people earning $4 million a year... I was listening to an interview with Bourque this morning. It was very enjoyable, but I see that they have temporarily suspended their hockey season so as to go and have fun in Nagano.

There is something I don't like about this out-and-out competition, and I don't think it's doing athletes any good. I don't know how we could achieve some kind of agreement around the world so as to stop this and also take into account the people actually participating.

• 1655

We have seen them collapse. The event lasts only 30 seconds. They ski down and do not qualify. I believe that in downhill ski events, they should have three chances to qualify. I think it is demanding. It makes no sense. In my view, there is something wrong about Olympic sports. I don't know how you would respond to that.

[English]

The Chairman: We'll have a reaction to that and then we'll go to Mr. Coderre.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Obviously many athletes feel that the commercial side of sport, and especially the major games, have detracted significantly from our ability to concentrate on what's most important, and that's pursuing excellence. I get satisfaction and relief from hearing some of the interviews that take place with the athletes after their performances, whether they're successful or not.

Jean-Luc last night talked about the same thing. I leave here; I'm still okay. I'm disappointed but there's so much more to life. In a victory it's the same thing. When you hear the skaters talking about how excited they are to have won medals and they're hoping to win more and there's a lot of pressure on them, it's in perspective.

One of the special things about a lot of the Canadian athletes...and even the survey says that we're looking at more of a balanced life. Sport is important, but you are not who you are on the playing field; you are also a person who has a life outside of that, and it's about trying to balance this.

With the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport and the Spirit of Sport Tour, we're trying to get those messages out as much as possible: that it's about a way of life, it's about fair play. From the 1960s to the 1990s, how many of those records would stand if they weren't...do we need two categories, the enhanced categories and the natural? I still wouldn't condone that.

There are serious problems and they need to be examined, not just nationally. Canada is a leader in terms of fair play and ethical sport. We're a leader in terms of trying to create well-balanced athletes. Obviously we need a lot more support to do that.

The Chairman: On that point of commercialization, I can understand commercialization for the task of creating the infrastructure in the events' physical plans, but what really bothers me is when I see our Canadian athletes, for the first time ever, wearing the Canadian windbreaker with the name Roots on it, which is a private sector company. That's the first time ever we've let a private corporation have their name on the Olympic outerwear.

It's good-quality merchandise, don't get me wrong, but we've made a trade-off there. The athlete is supposed to be the ultimate symbol of disassociation from the commercial, and here, for the first time, we have a Roots logo on every Canadian athlete.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I can't speak to it eloquently, but one of the key areas of the Winter Olympic athlete agreement as well as the Summer Olympic athlete agreement revolves around marketing. In fact, athletes don't even own their own image. Your local sponsor in your region who has helped to support you can't use the word “Olympic”, can't say they're supporters of the Olympic champion.

Olympic, the rings, are very much the Canadian Olympic Association. It's a sore point with the athletes that needs to be worked out. At what point do the athletes own their own image? Without athletes there are no Olympics, there are no Commonwealth Games, there are no Paralympic Games.

The Chairman: Here we don't even have Canada with its own image.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Exactly.

The Chairman: For me it's like putting a corporate logo on the flag.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I'm surprised you didn't see Canada. It's as big as this.

The Chairman: It should be alone. It should be pure. You shouldn't have a corporation on a Canadian uniform.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: It's a tough balance, because we're being asked to pursue alternative funding at all times.

The Chairman: That's true.

Okay, Monsieur Coderre, it's your turn and then we will move on to our next witnesses.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: First could you explain to me what Athletes CAN is? Who funds you?

• 1700

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: We are supported by Sport Canada. We do receive some funds. For the most part, we're a kitchen table type of organization. We have only one staff person, who is severely underpaid for the work she does for us.

We are a working board; I'm the chair of the association. And they are athletes. We vote on our athlete reps—our athletes are not chosen by a selection process. Our board of directors is voted on at our annual general meeting, and our board members are from coast to coast.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: How much do you receive from Sport Canada?

[English]

How much do you receive?

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Our budget is between $180,000 and $200,000. With that we have a bare bones— We don't spend a lot on administration, because our office space is provided by the University of Toronto, and as I said, we have one staff person. It goes entirely into programs. I had provided a list of the programs we run. One of the most important, and it's the only one of its kind in the world, is the Sports Solution.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: I noted something you said: "Those responsible for leadership and decision-making in sport must include the athlete both in defining the needs and goals and in determining how to meet them; i.e., the athlete should be the active subject in, not the object of, sporting programs".

In other words, the athlete must be the active subject in, not the object of, sporting programs.

Do you consider that Sport Canada has become just a big machine, that its mandate should be reviewed and focussed far more on the athlete? Do you feel that you are a bit like a puppet on the end of a string?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Again, what's the alternative? What I'm scared of is that a private organization would take it over, and then where's the accountability? And that for me is a very— In many countries it's the Olympic association of the country that runs sport in that country. That for me is a bit of a fear, because then you no longer have the accountability to the people. But I do believe the mandate of Sport Canada should definitely be reviewed.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: Therefore, at the present time, you are not satisfied with Sport Canada.

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: No, there are definitely some areas where we would like improvement. I think that's an essential part. When we make comments, I don't want to think of it as criticizing, but—

Mr. Denis Coderre: No, but I agree. Okay.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: It is important to ask questions, and it does not mean— We receive money—yes, thank you—but by being the independent voice we have to be able to take a stand on issues. It doesn't mean we'll always say what people want to hear, especially those who fund us. But it's important always to keep the athletes as our primary object, our primary focus, and we are accountable to the athletes. So if they are meeting the needs of athletes, I would be happy with them. If they are not, I'm not happy with them.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: Ms. Johnstone, I can understand why you were chosen as President. You are very good.

In your view, what is the athlete's goal? We discussed that a little last week. Is it the goal of the amateur athlete to become a professional?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: If the opportunity is there, it would be a wonderful dream to be able to do what you love more than anything. It's not everyone's dream. Some people see it as a part of their life. Athletes view it as a way of life, and it stays with you no matter what you end up going on to do.

Unfortunately, it's supply and demand, and there's not necessarily a big demand for many of our sports on a professional level. But by providing opportunities and coaching in other areas, we can offer some alternatives, so I think that's very important.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: And should it be the government which funds athletes, or should a partnership be established with the private sector? I agree about mercantilism, but should a partnership really be established between the government and the private sector, or should the government pay for everything for the athlete?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I believe personally and Athletes CAN believes that we need to support athletes to a level that allows them to pursue excellence. What's happening right now in sport—because everyone's being cut across many different sectors; it's not just sport—is that everyone's going for the corporate dollar; however, we don't have the resources to be able to compete, to even put together a really wonderful package that they're going to look at and go “Wow”.

For the most part, there are very few sports and very few athletes who have agents. Fewer than 10% would have an agent. Fewer than 10% of amateur athletes would have the ability to be able to pursue—

• 1705

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: I have one last question. Mr. Chairman, I think we should ask Mr. Warren questions not only about bilingualism but also about how he treats athletes.

Ms. Johnstone, do you believe that the Canadian Olympic Association treats its athletes well, and should the system for selecting athletes be reviewed?

[English]

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I definitely believe we need to review the system. Selection is one of the most important areas. It is one of the reasons we have the Sports Solution, because there are so many questions around selection and around discipline.

Quite frankly, there was a controversy before the games with— There are lots of different athletes who don't get there. If the money is there to send them, we should be sending more athletes and fewer administrators. That's my personal opinion.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Hear, hear! Can I put a motion on that?

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I feel very strongly about that. Pierre De Coubertin put it together not just to send administrators but so that the future leaders of the world, the athletes, would come together not just in competition but to have the opportunity to get to know each other—friendship, education, cultural exchange. There was so much more than just the competition.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Congratulations.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Johnstone. You've made a fabulous contribution to our work today.

Ms. Lori Johnstone: I would like to offer one suggestion. It would be possible, if we had time to coordinate it, to bring in athletes. They would have to be athletes from the area because we don't have a budget to bring in athletes from elsewhere, but you would be able to speak to them directly and hear their stories directly.

The Chairman: Could we ask you to reflect and think of a group of athletes for whom you feel it would be meaningful to have a session...and meaningful for us?

Ms. Lori Johnstone: Most definitely.

The Chairman: Liaise with Ms. Isles, and if the committee members are in support...terrific. Thank you very much.

We will now move to our third group of witnesses today. From Non-Federally Funded Olympic Sport Organizations, Mr. James Bandolla, executive director of Ski Jumping Canada; Ms. Kathy Millar, Federation of Canadian Archers Inc.; Neil Wilson, Canadian Snowboard Federation; and Jocelyn Langlois, Shooting Federation of Canada.

Welcome. Who would like to begin? James.

Mr. James Bandolla (Spokesperson, Non-Federally Funded Olympic Sport Organizations): Thank you. First of all, I'd like to thank the chair and the members for this opportunity. I think this type of forum is long overdue. For a lot of years we've been a little bit frustrated in not being able to take our opinions to anybody else other than Sport Canada. So we welcome this opportunity.

We've developed a document that is endorsed and supported by ten Olympic sports that at this time don't get any federal funding. Triathlon is one of those groups. We have nine others, and I'll just list them off: Canadian Modern Pentathlon Association, Canadian Rhythmic Sportive Gymnastic Federation—

The Chairman: Mr. Bandolla, I hate to interrupt you, but do you have a document that you've circulated? Do you have only the one copy or—

Mr. James Bandolla: No, I have 20. However, I was apparently not allowed to circulate it because we have not put it through translation at this point.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I will allow you to do so.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Tremblay. I appreciate that.

[English]

Mr. James Bandolla: It was fairly short notice for this meeting. We do have—

The Chairman: You should know that if ever you need assistance—and this is not a criticism, it's just a point of information. If ever you're going to appear in front of a committee and you need help in translation, just call the clerk of the committee or the chair of that committee. They have the capacity to assist in translation, provided it's not the length of a book or something. Do you know what I mean?

Okay, carry on, James.

• 1702

Mr. James Bandolla: Those federations are listed on the front of that document.

What I'd like to do today is talk about some of the problems with the sport funding accountability framework, and I'd like to talk about the impact of the loss of federal funding on some of the Olympic NSOs.

We do have two recommendations for this committee. One is with regard to changing the eligibility requirements for carding for athletes. The other is to provide a basic amount of funding for all Olympic sports.

There are problems with the sport funding accountability framework. The criteria are too restrictive. There is an inconsistent approach to funding of amateur sport in Canada. There's been a de facto abandonment of non-core sports. Also, there's a failure to recognize the cyclical nature of high-performance sport. Finally, there's a complete failure to address new Olympic sports, such as triathlon and snowboard. These are Olympic sports that aren't getting any funding right now and are quite possibly going to do very well for Canada in the Olympics.

The criteria are too restrictive. There are some Olympic sports that will never be mass participation sports, and there are several examples. This criterion is so restrictive that Canada's official summer sport did not even qualify for funding in the beginning. In response to that, the heritage minister found a way to justify funding for four more sports outside the sport funding accountability framework and called it the domestic sport pilot project. She funded lacrosse, football, ringette, and five-pin bowling. So now we have the situation where there's an inconsistent approach to funding amateur sport.

The creation of this exception creates a fundamental inconsistency in federal government funding of sport. According to the core sport program, the government's priority is to fund achievement at high levels. The domestic pilot rewards sports on high levels of participation.

A third category neglected under both scenarios is the funding of high-performance sport, as are Olympic sports by definition.

There has been a de facto abandonment of non-core sports. It appears it is the government's plan to let these sports die out, because they do not figure into the current sports plan. In recent studies conducted as part of the Canada business plan, only carded athletes and sports that were part of the core sport program were used. By omitting these non-core-status sports and their athletes from the studies, we've produced an incomplete and distorted picture of Canadian high-performance sport. These studies look at 38 sports only. A few years ago Sport Canada was funding 60 sports. What happened to the other 22? Why don't they look at this? They create a pretty rosy picture in this.

The Chairman: Good point.

Mr. James Bandolla: That is a problem.

When we're looking at athletes, only athletes from core sports are eligible for the full range of carding. We're getting a deceptive picture about what's going on here.

Another problem is the failure to recognize the cyclical nature of high-performance sport. Sport doesn't go through the four-year time cycles in the way Sport Canada funds its sports. Some sports that have been cut from federal funding won Olympic gold medals for Canada in the 1980s. They're no longer getting any funding.

The Chairman: Could you give examples?

• 1715

Mr. James Bandolla: Rhythmic gymnastics and shooting. We can talk more about that.

A complete loss of funding to sports in a down cycle seriously jeopardizes the sport's ability to recover from that cycle. So you've got a sport that's having difficulty already, then the funding is cut out from under them. They're supposed to scramble and hold it together. It becomes very difficult to do that.

This can put a tremendous amount of pressure on athletes. If they know that the future health of their sport and the funding that goes to that sport is dependent upon their performance, this is just an extraordinary amount of pressure on a young athlete. I can give examples of how that has affected some of our athletes. We can get to that later.

There's a complete failure to address new Olympic sports. Bill Hallett talked about it a little bit, and the same problem exists for snowboarding.

The rules and regulations imposed on organizations to try to achieve core-sport status are unreasonable, and there's a failure to take into account the newness of the sport. Several new sports, including snowboarding and triathlon, managed to grow and prosper without federal funding to date, but this situation will not last. Canada has been at the forefront of the development of both of these sports, but after the Olympic debut, the field will become crowded and much more competitive.

I think we're seeing a little bit of that right now in freestyle. Once the Finns started picking it up...you know, they had three in the top five at a recent event. When we start out with these newer sports, we often have an advantage that disappears after a period of time. It's important to get funding to these new sports so they can get a lead and hold onto it.

This is my third major point. I would like to talk a little bit about the impact of the loss of federal funding on Olympic sport national sport organizations. There's a loss of professional staff services. Twenty years of growth and progress in developing highly professional organizations has been undone in a matter of a couple of years. Volunteers have been placed under serious strain as they try to manage all the functions of a national sport organization. They're trying to manage an organization from coast to coast to coast in their spare time, after work and out of their basement.

There has been the creation of two-tier funding system for Olympic athletes. Athletes from non-core sports must rank in the top eight in the world before they receive any funding. In my organization, I could have a ski jumper who's ranked ninth in the world and who, at any point, could win a world cup. Or if he were to go to the Olympics, he could, that day, be the best in the world, realistically. But he won't get federal carding unless he's ranked in the top eight.

There are athletes from core sports that can be ranked below the top 75 in the world and still receive carding. So you've got two tiers of sports here. As for the group on the lower tier, their athletes are being treated completely differently from other athletes.

The other point—Lori commented on this—is their access to national sport training centres. When an athlete is carded, he can go in and get the full range of services from a national training centre.

Consider when a non-carded athlete goes in. In our case, we have ski jumpers who go into a training centre. They're not entitled to the same level of service as somebody from cross-country, as an example, or any other core sport.

There are the haves and the have-nots. It's quite distinct. One of our recommendations is to change that situation.

With the loss of funding to these NSOs, the dependence on the parent's income increases. A lot of these athletes are quite young. In some sports it is the self-financing athlete who represents Canada, not the athlete with the best ability. This might be happening at the Olympics, if you can imagine that.

• 1720

There is the potential for loss of athletes to other countries. The lack of adequate financial assistance for world-class amateur athletes in Canada puts Canada at risk of losing its athletes to other countries that will support them. I have an example of a rhythmic gymnastics athlete. You will recall, rhythmic gymnastics won a gold in the 1980s. Her name is Emilie Livingston. She's been offered a spot to compete for France. The fourth-ranked member of the Canadian team, Roxana Cervantes, has been approached by Mexico to compete for her birth country.

While loyal to their country, these athletes face the choice between competing for another country internationally and perhaps not competing at all. The Canadian government faces a choice between providing funding to allow these athletes to compete for their country and losing medals to another nation. That's the system right now.

There's been a cancellation of programs to enhance priority group access. Funding cuts have forced the cancellation of programs aimed at governments' stated priority groups—I'm thinking here particularly of women—and the president of the IOC recently announced that it is his goal that all sports included in the 2002 Winter Games include both men's and women's competitions. That's in Winter Games—Salt Lake City, Utah.

We do have some recommendations. We have two recommendations. One relates to the national sport organizations. The other relates to athletes directly.

One of the recommendations is to provide basic funding for all Olympic sports. Full funding for these sports would depend on the fulfilment of the core sport criteria. However, a basic minimum funding level of $100,000 would allow NSOs to provide a basic level of services to their athletes and maintain limited program development. We are asking for $100,000 a year.

The amount of money we are seeking represents 10% of the additional funding announced by the heritage minister in January. It's not very much.

This approach is in keeping with the core sport commissioner's recommendation for a two-tiered funding system. The Canadian Sport Council recommended to that commissioner that all sports be provided with base funding. In their view that was just a basic, essential element in order to properly run a national sport organization. That is our first recommendation.

Our second recommendation is directly related to Lori Johnstone's group of athletes, that we change the carding eligibility requirements. The restriction that athletes can be carded only if their sport meets the core sport criteria is unfair; it's very unfair to athletes. Carding should be provided on performance alone and not political judgments. That's how we're selecting, at this point, which athletes get the full range of carding. It doesn't matter if they're as good as or even, in some cases, better than other athletes. It depends on which sport they're from.

On a final note, the Olympics represents the pinnacle of sport competition. The Canadian government has defined its role in amateur sport as supporting achievement at the highest levels. Over 97% of Canadians believe it is important for Canada to participate in international amateur competitions. Not to provide all Olympic sport organizations is fundamentally inconsistent with the beliefs and priorities of both the federal government and the public, and our requests are both reasonable and fair. We believe they would be strongly endorsed by the public.

• 1725

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Bandolla.

Mr. O'Brien, would you like to begin?

Mr. Pat O'Brien: You are really speaking to Olympic sports that are not funded, is that correct?

Mr. James Bandolla: Yes.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Are the sports of the people you represent part of the Olympic movement?

Mr. James Bandolla: Yes, they're part of the Olympic program. There are three from the winter and seven from the summer.

The Chairman: What are the three from the winter?

Mr. James Bandolla: Ski jumping, snowboarding, and Nordic combined, which is a combination of jumping and cross-country skiing.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: Just picking up on that, a group such as Triathlon Canada, which we heard from originally...is there a concerted effort of groups? Do they work through you to try to— Quite frankly, it's a process of lobbying.

Mr. James Bandolla: Sure.

Mr. Pat O'Brien: I'm mean, there's no secret of it around this table.

When lacrosse got money—our colleague here wasn't there at that point. When lacrosse was cut out and then put back in, a very effective lobbying process took place, legitimately so. A number of MPs from different parts of the House said that it was a bloody joke to have Canada's national sport getting no money.

That was an effective lobby process. We're openly advising people that's part of our job as MPs. We're here to make the process work for you, so lobby and get people like us on-side. We'll do what we can.

Is a group like Triathlon Canada on their own, or can they work with your group to more effectively lobby the government?

Mr. James Bandolla: They do endorse and support what we're doing.

I contacted them as a representative of an Olympic sport that wasn't getting any money, so we ended up here at the same time. In fact, our concepts are global and span all of the ten Olympic sports that don't receive any money.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I think that we have covered every subject with the other two witnesses.

In my view, this mini scandal about the possible loss of a gold medal should not have occurred. Do you think that athletes should be more closely checked for illicit substances? Is this your role as an association, or is it the responsibility of Sport Canada or the Olympic Association?

Should we not make sure that our athletes are clean and have not taken any illicit substances? Obviously, there are two viewpoints, but should we not deal with the matter ourselves before hand so as to avoid what we are undergoing at the present time at the Olympic Games?

[English]

Mr. James Bandolla: I think there was a check. He was tested before he left. He got results—and there is a threshold. If he was below the threshold—

Mr. Denis Coderre: What was it?

Mr. James Bandolla: Fifteen parts per million is the threshold.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Their tests said 17.

Mr. James Bandolla: Yes. He was 17.8.

Mr. Denis Coderre: So he was too high.

Mr. James Bandolla: He was too high, but before he left he had been tested several times.

Mr. Denis Coderre: But we let him go anyway.

Mr. James Bandolla: He wasn't above. He was not above. He was tested.

Mr. Denis Coderre: My understanding was that while he said he didn't have marijuana, he had inhaled somebody else's a week before. Nevertheless, we could have known he was above the limit at that point. No?

• 1730

Mr. Neil Wilson (Non-Federally Funded Olympic Sport Organizations): I believe the Centre for Ethics in Sport in Canada perhaps should have let us know as the national federation of snowboarding. We have an agreement with our athletes that smoking marijuana is completely prohibited, even though it's not prohibited by the IOC.

It's the athlete's agreement that we have directly with our athletes like Ross. However, he was tested at the world cup and he was also tested randomly at home by the Centre for Ethics in Sport. The results, because he was below a certainly level, were not made public. Because they were below the certain level the results just said negative. When they are doing these drug testings the Centre for Ethics in Sport want them to be totally independent. We don't have anything to do with those testings.

I believe it may be that perhaps in the future the results from those tests should at least be made public to the national governing body for the sport prior to the Olympic Games or prior to any major competition we are supporting.

Mr. Denis Coderre: So if he was below the level, it means they had pot out there. Is that what you are saying?

The Chairman: No, what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that even if you had the results and even if he was at the one part per million level, he would still have violated the contract with the association.

Mr. Neil Wilson: Yes, and we would have taken some type of sanction at that point, perhaps as well as...if Ross himself knew. I believe Ross's statement 100%. Out of the athletes that we have in the sport of snowboarding in Canada, I think he is probably one of the most dedicated and the most concerned about his physical attributes and his body and what goes in and out of his body.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I have no doubt about that.

Mr. Neil Wilson: I believe if he had known that, then perhaps he wouldn't be hanging around some of the same people. He was not made aware that he had any marijuana in his body whatsoever from those first two original tests. Those tests were made without his knowledge. They showed up in Whistler. We were informed about three minutes before the tests and we were told we needed to get Ross to a certain location in a few minutes for a test.

The Chairman: Do they do that with all athletes?

Mr. Neil Wilson: They do it randomly throughout the country with all different types of elite athletes. I think they do a good job. Canada probably has the most stringent standards in the world.

Mr. Denis Coderre: You're saying that our tests didn't show that before he left.

Mr. Neil Wilson: It showed, but they didn't tell us. The knowledge wasn't released.

The Chairman: Okay. Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Thank you for your presentation. I am a fan of the sport you represent and I think it's fantastic. Is there a facility to train for ski-jumping in Calgary?

Mr. James Bandolla: Yes, in Calgary and also in Thunder Bay.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Ah, in Thunder Bay too. I see.

You say that of all the associations, there are only ten which are not funded at all.

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois (Shooting Federation of Canada): I will answer, Ms. Tremblay. In the past, Sport Canada, funded ten olympic sports. Since the Core Sport Review, they no longer receive funding.

I am involved in shooting. I was the technical director at the time, and the reasons given seem to me vague. At the present time, our athletes have to cover all their costs except when they receive money from the Legacy Fund of the Canadian Olympic Association.

Ten olympic sports are not funded.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: The triathlon, for example, has never been funded.

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: That's the difference.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Nor you. The sport of snowboarding is in the Olympics for the first time. So you have not been funded?

• 1735

[English]

Mr. Neil Wilson: Never.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Were you funded in the past?

Mr. James Bandolla: Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, you were. Is it because your athletes did not perform as well that you no longer receive funding?

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: The criteria are quite stringent. In the case of certain sports, it could be because there are not enough people involved. Or it could be because of performance or other criteria. First, there was the Cal Best report. Then there was the other one, the Sport Funding and Accountability Framework, and between the two there was a task force. Certain sports lost funding for various reasons.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I have a paper here which, I believe, was prepared by the Library. It lists the organizations funded. There are about 50. I counted them quickly. There may be 49 or 51. I might have missed a line. Funding levels go from $4,540 to $1,050,000. Therefore, it goes from $4,000 to $1,000,000.

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: Excuse me, Ms. Tremblay. Was the report you have, written before Ms. Copps announced the $10 million?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes. It is dated February 10. Let's presume that there are about 50 associations and we add—

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: There are 38 associations.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: —the 10 that you want. There are associations funded and federations funded. Are you recommending that both be funded, associations and federations?

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: Whether it is an association or a federation depends only on the particular charter. Both have the same prerogatives and authority on the national scene. In some cases they prefer to be called an association and in others a federation.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: We have a document dated February 10, 1998, whereas yours is dated February 11, 1998. According to the report of February 10 which we have, you represent the Federation of Canadian Archers Inc. Is that you?

Ms. Kathy Millar (Federation of Canadian Archers Inc.): Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: According to this document you received, but I don't know when, $24,865.

[English]

Ms. Kathy Millar: I'd like to state that the funding we receive right now is under a special grant for inclusion of those with disabilities. We totally self-fund everything else we do. Under the terms in Sport Canada for certain programs that they have decided to maintain, because we have always included wheelchair archers in our activities, we could apply for specific funds solely for inclusion events.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It's only for them?

Ms. Kathy Millar: That is it, only, and it must be used solely for those things.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: That's very interesting.

[English]

Ms. Kathy Millar: This is the old system of Sport Canada funding. They were very specific about what we could use the money for and that's where this comes from.

The Chairman: That's misleading information the way it's presented here.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, that's right.

[English]

Ms. Kathy Millar: The same is true when they had programs for women in sport. We used to have another committee set up, and that helped us to establish a harassment policy. Even though we have never really had a problem with that, we were able to access it. Some of our volunteers could come together for meetings and they could design a suitable harassment program, but the funding was used solely for that topic and nothing else.

• 1740

The Chairman: If I could intervene just for one second, the Shooting Federation of Canada is under the same—

[Translation]

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: For disabled athletes also, $25,000 just for disabled athletes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It is important that be clarified. We are learning and that should be cleared up. Thank you for your information, Mr. Langlois. That is an important point you have made, because we did not have the right information.

You say that at least $100,000 is needed. I'm not very good at figures. You are the specialist in figures, so please tell me how much that costs for 60 associations receiving $100,000. Does that come to $60 million or $6 million? Six million dollars. It is less than what is indicated there, and things could be balanced better.

You say that $100,000 for each association would be the basic level. Would that provide a permanent secretariat? Would there at least be someone looking after the secretariat? How would that $100,000 be spent?

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: When we were funded, there were ten of us employed. Obviously, in that group, there were people associated with the national team, others involved in development, others were officials or coaches.

At the present time we have only two employees. I am here as a volunteer, as Vice-President for High Performance, representing athletes, coaches and officials. We believe that we need a minimum to administer programs already implemented. Also, since techniques change, our coaching manuals must be updated. If, as Sport Canada wants us to do, we revise our position in the year 2001, it may be a little bit late, because by that time it will be like reinventing the wheel.

I worked for seven years as a professional, and we had a model which was copied by other countries who came to visit our facilities in Gloucester. I'm a little bit embarrassed to go there now, when I think of all the expertise we have lost, the coaches who have left to work in Malaysia, Barbados or Europe because we weren't able to keep them. We paid to train them and now that they are trained we can no longer keep them. Our coaches are volunteers, but their costs are no longer covered.

Our coaches and athletes receive absolutely nothing from Sport Canada. The only money we have comes from the Canadian Olympic Association. We distribute it to the athletes. The federation has to raise funds through auctions to be able to keep two people working in the office. Our level was one of excellence, now it is one of poverty. I'm not talking just about my sport. We are losing what we had achieved in terms of quality and role models.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Did you receive assistance when the Firearms Act was adopted? Did it change anything for you? No?

Mr. Jocelyn Langlois: Yes, that changed certain things. I spent time at the Department of Justice trying to improve the picture a bit. We are not against the Firearms Act, but at the beginning it was rather difficult. At the present time things are going very well, but I hope that new legislation will not be adopted in a year's time.

There was a competition last weekend in Toronto involving 400 athletes. It was held in a hotel, with air guns and air riffles. We had athletes from China, Japan and other countries. We even had one Japanese wheelchair competitor.

• 1745

We are now focusing more on the bulk competitors because we cannot help the elite, but as we do not have any elite model, this competition, which should have taken place here in Hull, now has to be held in Toronto because of the airport's greater ability to attract people from outside the country. Otherwise, the competition itself would just die out.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Langlois, Mr. Bandolla and Ms. Millar. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn until after the Olympic Games.