SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, March 25, 1998

• 1633

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.)): We'll bring the meeting to order and welcome Mr. Alan Clark, the head of television network sports for the English service of the CBC, and Daniel Asselin, director of sports programs. We have Jim Thompson here, who is president of NetStar Sports, with Jacques Boucher, vice-president of programming for Réseau des sports, RDS.

Who would like to begin?

Mr. Alan Clark (Head, Television Network Sports, English Service, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation): Daniel is very new to the position. We should throw him in first, I think.

Voices: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: Okay, go ahead. Relax and enjoy.

Mr. Daniel Asselin (Director, Sports Programs, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation): Mr. Chairman and members of the committee,

[Translation]

my name is Daniel Asselin. I've been Director of Sports Programs with Radio-Canada for the past two months. I am accompanied today by Daniel Picard who is Chief of Production and the administrator of Sports Services with SRC. If there are questions relating to the past which I am unable to answer, I'll ask Mr. Picard for help.

Sports represents one of the strongest cultural links uniting all Canadians and from its foundation the French-language network of the CBC has been an outstanding medium enabling people to share the exploits of the professional and amateur athletes they admire.

Since 1952, La Soirée du hockey has been a Saturday evening tradition for almost a million francophones every week. Associated with the legend of the Montreal Canadiens, La Soirée du hockey helped make the reputation of Maurice Richard, Jean Béliveau, Jacques Plante, Guy Lafleur, Patrick Roy and other models for all young French Canadians. The recent signing of a four-year contract confirms that this tradition is being upheld.

• 1635

The French-language television of the CBC has been the main broadcaster of the Olympic Games since the Rome Games in 1960. The Olympics, along with other games that are regularly broadcast, result in extensive coverage of our athletes. During the Games, the Canadian athlete is the absolute priority of SRC but, as was done in the case of the Atlanta and Nagano Games, during the months preceding the Olympics we cover a whole range of national and international competitions showcasing athletes who are likely to perform well at the Games and profiling a great many different athletes.

The involvement of the SRC in the Olympics results in a synergy that contributes to giving maximum visibility to Canadian athletes. By signing an agreement to ensure that it will have broadcast rights for the Olympics until the year 2008, not only has SRC gained the status of the Canadian olympic television network but it has also taken on a great responsibility as the standard bearer of our athletes in all disciplines.

SRC television is considering various options to achieve this objective since it is clear that a 14-year-old athlete who is making his or her mark today at the local level may prove to be one of the greatest olympic hopes of the country at the age of 24 for the 2008 Olympic Games.

With the assurance that we will be broadcasting the Olympics during the next ten-year period, we in SRC are able to put into place structures that are completely devoted to this event. Both English and French-language televisions will be able to increase their co-operation in covering the Games as well as in promoting our athletes.

Moreover, the prospect of long-term olympic planning will allow the SRC to achieve significant economies of scale. In this same spirit, SRC will give full coverage to the Winnipeg Pan- American Games in 1999.

SRC makes a point in showing interest in all aspects of sport. That is why the Atlanta Paralympic Games were the subject of a long special program and a two-hour program to be broadcast next Saturday on March 28 will be devoted to the participation of Canadian athletes in the Nagano Paralympic Games.

The French-language television of Radio-Canada (SRC) attaches a great deal of importance to its daily sportscasts. Amateur sports occupies a more important place than ever with particular emphasis given to the journalistic dimension. We have frequent reports describing the training of athletes and the material conditions in which they pursue excellence. In addition, Les nouvelles du sport is a program with regular reports from the West, Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes. In this respect, it can be described as the only authentically national sportscast in the francophone market, the only one to provide a national showcase for many local competitions.

Recognized as one of the best in the country, the SRC web site includes an important site devoted to sports which constitutes a particularly useful vehicle for additional information, particularly in the world of amateur sports. During the Nagano Games, for instance, 370,000 visitors spent an average of 16 minutes on the SRC sports site and 75,000 people made use of this site to send messages of encouragement to Canadian athletes.

Aware of the multicultural reality of the country, SRC was the first national television to broadcast in 1982 and 1986 World Soccer Cup matches that arouse a great deal of interest among our compatriots of European and Latin-American origin in particular.

Nevertheless, owing to the general mandate of French television and the expectations of our audience, there are limitations on the amount of sports programming we can provide. That explains why Sunday afternoons, once devoted to sports, have for some years now being reserved mostly for cultural programs. That is why our French language television decided to stop broadcasting American football and, following the disappearance of the Alouettes, Canadian football as well, and has also been cutting back on the number of baseball games shown on the air.

Because of the changing media landscape and the arrival of a specialized sports channel, SRC is in a position to better target its priorities without penalizing fans. When SRC decided that it would not be showing one of the two Stanley Cup semi-finals because of its mandate as a general television network, the contract was signed in the knowledge that the majority of francophone fans would have access to these games. Moreover, the signature of strategic agreements with RDS relating to the broadcasting of formula 1 Grand Prix and the Olympic Games enabled SRC to maximize the amount of sports programming shown and the visibility of our athletes while remaining faithful to its other responsibilities.

• 1640

In establishing balanced programming French-language television must take into account the fact that sports programs, even the prestigious ones like the hockey finals or the Olympics, do not attract more viewers than its most popular Canadian drama programs.

Nonetheless, SRC television considers sport to be an integral part of Canadian culture that deserves a significant place on air.

The sport service of SRC television, production and news rooms, employs 35 people on a regular basis with the addition of some 20 freelance and contract employees hired for special events.

Sports broadcasting, hockey in particular, has driven the technological development of SRC. New material and innovations required for sports coverage have ended up serving all sectors of the corporation: news, entertainment, drama etc. They've also made possible the creation of highly specialized jobs and the development of expertise recognized throughout the world. During the Nagano Games, for example, the organizing committee called upon the producer of La Soirée du hockey, Jacques Primeau, to direct the broadcasting of the olympic hockey games.

The visibility given to our athletes by television is particularly useful to them in obtaining sponsors or other forms of support because of their own fame or because they become instant celebrities owing to their performance and to television. Many top- notch athletes can become excellent television commentators such as Gaétan Boucher, Pierre Harvey and Nathalie Lambert who were recently heard during the Nagano Games.

Whether it be the Olympics or professional sports, broadcasting rights account for an essential element in the financial planning of sports organizations.

In the case of SRC, the top sports programs, the Olympics and hockey, are particularly attractive since they generally pay for themselves and give us the opportunity to shine the spotlight on Canadian athletes and at the same time develop exceptional Canadian expertise.

The cancellation of SRC series basically devoted to amateur sports like Les Héros du samedi emphasizing athletes 15 years old and under, and L'Univers des sports, outside the pre-olympic periods, is mainly due to economic considerations. Like all sectors of SRC, the Sports Service has had to cut back its expenses. With the exception of prestigious events like the Olympics, the limited audience of amateur sports programs cannot generate sufficient advertising revenue to cover a significant share of the high production costs involved in broadcasting or reporting on sports events. Other avenues could be explored to allow SRC or other broadcasters to follow particular events, Canadian or regional championships for example, that they are enabled to cover today for reasons of profitability.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Asselin.

I prefer we wait until hearing all the speakers before asking questions. Is that agreeable?

[English]

Mr. Clark.

Mr. Alan Clark: Thank you. I'm accompanied today by Nancy Lee, deputy head of CBC Sports.

Our department is part of the English television network. I report directly to the vice-president, Jim Byrd, who has appeared before your committee on a number of occasions, I believe.

We're small. We directly employ about 50 people. There are another approximately 20 people who are assigned from other divisions within the corporation to work in our sports department and there are about 35 analysts, researchers and freelancers who we hire on a continuing basis, but not on a full-time basis. Our technical personnel is acquired from our regional locations across the country, from the freelance market and from the broadcast centre in Toronto.

Last year we produced 916 hours of programming, both amateur and professional, and this year, with Nagano, we will be over 1,100 hours.

• 1645

Daniel has talked about the history of Radio-Canada. Well, we've been around since almost the start of the CBC itself— although I haven't been around that long. We have an incredibly proud history. Hockey Night in Canada will celebrate its forty-sixth anniversary this year. We've been broadcasting the Grey Cup for about that time. And over those years, we've seen personalities on CBC become household names —Foster Hewitt, Danny Gallivan, Don Whitman, Ernie Afaganis, Bob Cole, Brian Williams and Ron MacLean, just to name a few.

This tradition began in an era when the CBC was the television network. Today, I'm proud to say that we flourish in the multichannel universe. We have maintained the tradition of quality and excellence in this new competitive environment, and it's an excellence that is recognized around the world.

As for sport itself, it's never been more popular in our country. At least, that's our perspective. We've never seen more people attending sporting events in our country, participating in sporting events, or watching them on television in greater numbers. It's an important part of our culture, and the CBC plays a critical role in reflecting our culture by producing quality sports programming that is predominantly and distinctly Canadian.

We're also playing an important role in the Canadianization of the CBC network. As you know, as of the past two seasons, we have no longer been broadcasting any continuing American series in prime time. As our president has told your committee, we will be moving to off-prime in that regard, and will pretty soon be an entirely all-Canadian network.

It's critical to the success of that Canadianization that large audiences are drawn to parts of the schedule to attract viewers and sponsors who then come to the less popular Canadian programming. Sports plays an important role in that regard. In the Nagano Olympics just completed, the numbers we have now show that 17 million English-speaking Canadians watched part of our broadcast each week, many of them in the middle of the night. Hockey Night in Canada is attracting five to six million Canadians every Saturday night. The women's curling championship, the Scott Tournament of Hearts, which was held recently, attracted more than three million Canadians. So mass audiences are being brought to the CBC by sport.

The heritage department, to which this committee reports, is well aware of the financial impact that CBC Sports has on our corporation; however, it bears repeating that CBC Sports pays for itself. The revenue generated from professional sports has subsidized our amateur coverage and, as was mentioned earlier, contributes quality Canadian programming that attracts mass audiences.

Just as the rest of the public and private sectors over the last decade have been affected by the economic conditions in the world, we've been no different. Our response to that— and I don't really want to say it was a slogan —after we discussed what we did, was to come out with the slogan, “Home of the Champions”. What we did through that was to focus our attention on where our dollars could best be spent on sport.

We got rid of Sportsweekend, which was an omnibus program. It had a lot of fill programming, a lot of acquired material from the United States, and a lot of simulcast material. Our schedule is now almost 98% Canadian in terms of sport. The last thing we take simulcasts of are Indy car races. We carry the two Canadian ones and, in conjunction with TSN, we then do them in simulcast. But those are the only ones that we do now.

We're showcasing Canadian champions at every level, in almost every sport, including hockey, curling, rodeo, equestrian, freestyle skiing, gymnastics, Canadian football, beach volleyball and so on. We save money by tightening our budgets, by negotiating better rights deals, and working out contra arrangements.

• 1650

Our labour agreements have changed. There was a time when CBC Sports was bound to use CBC personnel. We are now able to use mixed crews and go into the freelance market.

Of course, the alternative to cutting budgets is to raise more money, and CBC Sports has been active in pursuing host broadcast activities. In the past year, we were host broadcaster to world cup skiing in Whistler, the World Canoe Championships in Halifax, and in Nagano we were hired to produce hockey and curling for the world. We recently signed a multimillion-dollar contract with the Pan American Games in Winnipeg, where we'll act as host broadcaster, with more than 400 employees.

We've been entrepreneurial in other areas. We currently rent our hockey netcams and other technical gear that was developed and purchased specifically for sports. Our archives is generating revenue, and where rights agreements permit, we're selling programming to New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong and South Africa.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we've formed a strategic alliance to expand our programming and to save money. Specifically, we are working with TSN on a number of fronts, including curling, the CFL, the Pan American Games, and last Thursday we signed a joint deal to broadcast the Olympics through 2008.

I'd now like to focus briefly on the challenges, starting with amateur sport. We're privileged to live in a very wealthy country, where our young people today have the opportunity to pursue almost any sport. I was thinking, as I drove in today past Glebe Collegiate where I went to high school, of the options my son in Toronto has compared to what we had, in that he plays squash, there's a golf team, there's a tennis team, rugby is there— no sports that were there at the time I was in high school. As well, the multicultural nature of our country has introduced a lot of new sports to the menu, and the issue becomes how do we support them all with money and television?

I was reading the transcripts, and I saw the testimony from Sport Canada, which said that they can no longer provide financial support to every amateur body. They made the painful decision to reduce funding to 38 sports from 58. And we're no different. As I said, we've had to tailor our dollars to fit our program priorities.

The other aspect of sport is that it's no different from the rest of the world; it loves winners. On a beautiful day in Albertville in 1994, Kerrin Lee-Gartner won a gold metal. The following Saturday, we carried a world cup race from Whistler, and we attracted 850,000 viewers. This past season, we carried only four weekends of skiing and never attracted more than 300,000 viewers.

Then we look at the sports themselves. We don't have any heroes right now, and so alpine skiing is on a downturn, but snowboarding is exploding. A few years ago we carried for two seasons world cup volleyball, and now it's gone, but beach volleyball, as a result of Atlanta, is exploding. Horse racing is desperately trying to compete in the betting world with casinos, but Spruce Meadows in Calgary is now regularly attracting 40,000 fans on the prairies to watch show jumping three weekends a year.

Athletics and swimming dominate the Olympic, Commonwealth and Pan American Games, but Jim and I will testify that no one watches or attends track or swim meets in between major games. So it's a matter today that heroes, trends and marketing are dominating our business.

On the issue of women's sports, we realized many years ago that viewing to sports had basically flat-lined. Where were the new viewers? They were largely females. We acquired sports properties that female viewers indicated a preference for, such as figure skating, swimming, diving and equestrian, and we also tried to make our professional sports, like football and hockey, more accessible to female viewers. But still, outside the major multi-event sports, such as the Olympics or Commonwealth Games, women are poorly represented on television, just as they are on the sports pages of our newspapers. The professional sports —hockey, football, baseball, basketball and motorsport— dominate in North America.

• 1655

There's also the issue of sports for disabled athletes. This past week a CBC crew returned from Nagano, where they were covering the Paralympics. That five-person crew and a single reporter from radio were the only Canadian media covering that event in Nagano.

We were hired, as I mentioned, to produce hockey in Nagano at the Big Hat. We had 19 cameras, we had 45 personnel. When our camera went into the Big Hat last week for sledge hockey, ours was the only camera in the building. We broadcast 280 hours from the Nagano Olympics. We'll broadcast a two-hour highlight show of the Nagano Paralympics. No one would suggest, I don't think, that the two games should have received the same coverage, but I have to ask, shouldn't the gap be narrowed? In between Olympics there is virtually no television coverage of disabled sport.

Regional reflection is part of the mandate of the CBC. I can tell you this has been tough to achieve in sports in certain areas, particularly Atlantic Canada. The population base, as we know, does not support major professional sports. There is professional hockey at the AHL level, but that's it. Despite the costs, we've been able to cover some sports in that area, such as gymnastics in Summerside, bowling in Saint John, canoeing last summer in Halifax, and we'll be back in P.E.I. this summer for skins golf. But the reality is we must find creative new ways to get television cameras into the far-flung regions of our country.

We don't have the answers today to the under-representation of amateur sport, female athletes or disabled athletes on television. For our part, we have begun discussions with Sport Canada to see if there are creative ways that we can find to get more amateur sport on television. We're doing the same with our sponsors— people like Royal Bank, who are interested in supporting amateur sport —and quite frankly we're anxious to see what new ideas are put forward to this committee to address these issues.

On the professional front, I think everyone here is aware of the impact that big business is having on our professional teams. There isn't a team in this country that isn't struggling. I know that local and provincial governments struggle regularly with the issue of whether they should be supporting professional franchises, and everyone seems to have a different idea on the value of the benefits to a community of professional sport.

I think everyone also thinks that television is the answer to saving sport, both professional and amateur. The unbelievable rights that are currently being paid in the United States for the NFL, in particular, baseball, and college basketball so badly distort the picture in our country. Sports used to make a lot of money for Canadian networks.

I won't speak for Jim, but for our part it's not nearly so any more. The pressures of the proliferation of new channels, rising production costs and higher rights fees, have dramatically affected the bottom line.

For our part, whether there are three or four Canadian teams in the play-offs, whether they advance to the second round, will determine whether we make or lose money on hockey this year. We used to make money at one time on the CFL, but no longer. We're only breaking even on baseball because we reduced our rights costs over the past two years by 40%.

All that said, sports television is alive and well in our country. There have never been more sports on television and there has never been better-produced sports television. But it's a business and our business is driven by ratings. It takes viewers to generate sponsor dollars, and for the most part the harsh reality is that only those sports that can attract an audience are getting on television.

We're doing our part to provide the broadest possible coverage. This September we will provide almost 40 hours of coverage from Malaysia on the Commonwealth Games. It's an event that can't possibly make money, but we can't ignore the more than 200 elite athletes who will be competing on behalf of our country. We've joined forces, as I said earlier, with TSN to provide almost 100 hours of television from the Pan American Games in Winnipeg. The last Pan American Games received no television coverage in this country. And finally, as I mentioned, we've joined in a long-term, multimillion-dollar partnership with TSN to broadcast the Olympic Games.

The CBC and our longest-standing partner, Radio-Canada, remain committed to providing quality coverage of Canadian sport. We're also committed to working with our new private sector partners, our sponsors and our sports bodies to expand this coverage of Canadian athletes.

• 1700

Thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Clark.

Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Jim Thompson (President, NetStar Sports Group): Mr. Chairman, members of Parliament, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for the invitation to appear before you today. I am president of a new company, NetStar Sports Group, which is a division of NetStar Communications. Our group now includes The Sports Network, or TSN, Le Réseau des sports, or RDS, as well as NetStar Sales, a specialty advertising sales division focused solely on sports.

Gerry Janneteau, who is the president and general manager of RDS, is not me with me today because he is ill. Jacques Boucher, who is the vice-president of programming for RDS, has kindly consented to come in this morning to help me with this presentation.

At NetStar, sport is a business as well as a responsibility. We're very proud of our success as a company, but we're equally proud of our success in developing sport in the country. Jacques and I would like to share with you today some of our views of these dual roles. We'd like to touch on our contributions to the economy, the commitment by TSN and RDS to sport in Canada, and a few thoughts on how to keep the momentum going.

The NetStar Sports Group really began as TSN in 1984 with 50 people and a dream. Today, in 1998, TSN and RDS are two of the most successful specialty television services in the country. Together with NetStar Sales we employ over 500 dedicated and talented people who program television sports 24 hours a day in both official languages across Canada.

Beyond the direct employment, both networks have also stimulated the development of independent television production across the country. In fact, in the case of RDS, the independent sports television was virtually non-existent in the French marketplace before the network launched in 1989. Between the two networks today, close to 500 hours of independent television programming was aired last year alone.

The foundation of our commitment to sports is set out in our specialty television licences. Under its licence, TSN devotes 50% overall and 60% of its prime time evening schedule to Canadian sports programming. TSN also spends a minimum of 44% of the previous year's gross revenue on Canadian programming. Last year alone, TSN and RDS spent over $80 million on Canadian programming. Our commitment to Canadian sports through our Canadian programming has an extended economic impact on all sport in Canada. Sport really sponsors sport in Canada.

As a broadcaster, we have made significant contributions to the development of sport in Canada. For example, there are 4,300 hours of original sports programming covering over 100 different sports televised each year that were not available to Canadians before TSN. Over 1,400 hours every year are devoted to amateur sport. TSN launched women's hockey on television when we broadcast the first World Women's Hockey Championship in 1991 in this city. This past weekend saw the first telecast of the Canadian Women's Hockey Championship on TSN and RDS. Alberta, incidentally, beat Ontario 3 to 2 in overtime.

This past summer we broadcast an unprecedented 50 hours of national coverage of the Canada Summer Games from Brandon, Manitoba. The network also carries the major CIAU national championships each year. TSN offers unprecedented coverage of soccer to Canadian viewers each week, with Soccer Saturday on Saturday morning, extensive coverage of the Canadian national team, including its qualification games for the world cup and Olympic play, as well as complete world cup coverage since 1986.

TSN has played a role in the dynamic growth of curling in the country. We broadcast hundreds of hours from all the major national and international championships. Our new seven-year agreement with the Canadian Curling Association assures that this sport will have an even greater television exposure nationally, well into the next century.

• 1705

Our national news program, SportsDesk, has contributors from all across Canada to bring viewers up to date on sports news from Newfoundland to Vancouver Island nine times a day.

And in Vancouver, our new western broadcast centre means direct input from the west on stories that affect that area.

But our commitment goes well beyond the screen. We provide scholarships for excellence in university athletics, as well as internships to students from 25 different colleges across the country. Through programming features, there are ongoing financial contributions, which now total over $300,000 to the Coaching Association of Canada for the training of Canadian coaches.

Particularly dear to our hearts, TSN produces and broadcasts the annual sports celebrities festival auction each year to raise money for the Special Olympics in Canada. Last year it was over $1 million. We also televise national and international Special Olympic Games very year.

RDS has an equally compelling story to tell, and Jacques is here to do that honour.

[Translation]

Mr. Jacques Boucher (Programming Vice-President, Réseau des sports): Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, RDS has a mandate to reflect Quebec athletes, teams and events to Quebeckers, providing the most entertaining, high quality, all French sports coverage.

And we also broadcast a great many events, sports magazines and sportscasts reflecting what is taking place in the sports world in the areas served by RDS.

The network is equally conscious of regional interests and events in its schedule. In fulfilling its mandate, RDS devotes over 70% of its programming, both overall and in the evening, as well as at least 50% of the network's gross revenue to Canadian programming.

I'd like to draw to your attention some key highlights of our programming. Two thousand four hundred hours per year of amateur sports are broadcast on the network, over half of which is from Quebec. RDS has given extensive coverage of Jacques Villeneuve's outstanding career, from the Formula Atlantic to his World Formula 1 championship last fall; a full schedule of the Quebec major junior hockey league and the world's famous Quebec pee-wee hockey tournament. RDS broadcast 50 hours over this past year of the Canada Games in Brandon, with a particular focus on Quebec athletes and teams.

The network broadcasts the Gala Sports Quebec, which is the annual award ceremony honouring professional and amateur athletes, coaches, volunteers and teams throughout the province. Our sport cast, Sports 30 Mag, is broadcast nine times a day. It covers sport events throughout the world and enables our viewers to find out more about our athletes, both the top names and those who are up and coming, as well as student and university sport.

Since its launch, RDS has been involved in the sports and activities of people with disabilities. Not only have we broadcast sports competitions in wheelchairs but we have also, in cooperation with Le Défi sportif event involving handicapped athletes, initiated an awareness campaign to sensitize the population about the skills and achievements of handicapped athletes.

Today, Le Défi sportif is one of Canada's largest sporting events with close to a dozen countries participating. RDS produced and aired a documentary series on coaching at all levels last fall. And that's merely a taste of RDS.

Now a few words about the Canada Games. The key of our viewers' satisfaction and to the economics of our businesses is the coverage of Canadian sport, both amateur and professional.

• 1710

At TSN and RDS Canadian content is king. We've learned first hand over the last 14 years that Canadians want to watch their athletes and their teams. Sport is an extremely powerful expression of culture. That's why at TSN and RDS we have a responsibility to reflect the unique Canadian sporting experience.

Certainly the most sincere commitment to the development of our own sports is the Canada Games. A number of the witnesses that have come before you have stressed that an integral part of any sports program in Canada is the Canada Games. We couldn't agree more. That's why TSN and RDS committed to broadcast the 1997-1999 and 2001 Canada Games.

Originating from Brandon last summer, the TSN and RDS coverage was unprecedented— more than 50 hours of live coverage on each network at a cost of close to $2 million, which raised the profiles of the athletes, the games and the host community. Our belief is that national broadcast coverage is essential to ensuring that the spirit of the games is shared across the country.

Next winter, the coverage of the 1999 Games in Cornerbrook, both in French and English, will be even more exciting, and it will enable us to show a wonderful spot to the rest of the country. London, Ontario, follows in 2001.

[English]

Mr. Jim Thompson: Finally, a few words on the continued growth and success of sports in Canada.

As Jacques said, sports are a powerful expression of our Canadian culture and we must not lose it. Rather, we must build it even higher. From the NetStar perspective, there are several points for the committee to consider.

First, sport is a business, a big business, in Canada, one that requires the support and cooperation of a broad partnership of Canadian shareholders in order to survive and flourish. Government, private sector sponsors, sports federations, and broadcasters must all join forces to work together to contribute to the growth and success of Canadian sport. No one entity can do it alone.

Second, coaching: The continuing development of quality coaches in Canada through programs such as the National Coaching Institute is an absolute necessity. Coaches provide leadership, expertise, guidance, and support to thousands of athletes, particularly young, developing athletes, where the influence of coaches is extensive and long-lasting.

Third, facilities: The development of first-class facilities for the training of our athletes is also critical. National sports centres such as the speed skating facility in Calgary have already proven their value in the recent Olympic Games results.

Finally —and maybe this should be first— athletes: Sport in Canada must be athlete centred, with all the above focused on recruiting, training, and producing the finest high-performance athletes we possibly can. The recent “gold medal” emotions we saw in Nagano are real, as is the pride we all feel in their successes. Sport is a strength in this country, and one that should be preserved and fostered.

Jacques and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you today. We would be happy to answer any of your questions. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Boucher.

Ms. Tremblay, would you like to begin?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Yes, thank you.

[Translation]

I would like to thank all four of you for your presentation. And I would especially like to thank the TSN and RDS networks for having provided their documents in both languages. I would have liked to be able to congratulate the CBC as well, but unfortunately, its document is only in English. I think this is unfortunate, because the French document that we have is not the translation of the CBC's English document and vice-versa. Similarly, there is no English translation for the French document provided by SRC. This demonstrates that they are two distinct corporations, at least when we look at their documents and papers. CBC has provided us with an English-only document and, SRC, with a French-only document. This is quite surprising for a Crown corporation that is supposed to respect bilingualism.

• 1715

Having said that, I would first like to ask SRC-CBC both the problems that were experienced at Nagano, at least those that we discussed during Ms. Copps' press conference on February 19. I saw some articles, and we heard comments from both the athletes and some journalists.

CBC Toronto seems to have been the part of the corporation that went to scout out the situation on several occasions well before the Olympic Games to negotiate locations, parking and all the material organization of the event. The end result, to keep it short, would seem to be that there is a real difference in the way Francophones and Anglophones are treated by the Corporation. Radio and television are treated differently. The people responsible for sports coverage and those working in news coverage are treated differently. This seems to create situations of conflict.

For example, when CBC Toronto went to negotiate the parking locations, the Anglophones were put in Parking No 2 and the Francophones in Parking No 6, so that in order to get to the press building, the Francophones had to walk almost one-half hour, with all of their equipment, while the Anglophones were just beside it.

These are the sorts of things that Ms. Copps and we members of Parliament as well as the Ambassador of Canada wanted to find out when we were preparing to meet with journalists in Nagano.

Then there was the problem when our athletes were asked for interviews by journalists both in English and French. Newsworld, RDI, SRC, CBC, Le Point, the news, the sports news— they all wanted interviews. While we were there, Stojko had been invited to 12 different interviews by SRC and CBC alone. This created a huge problem for the person who was in charge of replying to journalists who requested our athletes.

We have just seen that you will be the exclusive broadcasters for the next 10 years. Do you really intend to carry out a thorough analysis of what happened in Nagano so as to be able to reduce costs, send fewer people, combine teams, etc.? The Anglophone interviewer may not in fact be able to interview in French and vice-versa, but perhaps the technician or cameraman, be they English or French, could capture the images.

The figures show that CBC had 300 people and SRC 106 etc. I don't want to get into the details, since you will have two partners who will be able to give you more help, will you be able to really carry out a systematic analysis of what happened, so that the errors of Nagano are not repeated, the costs can be cut as much as possible, the service will improve and you, yourselves, will be better served by the athletes?

[English]

Mr. Alan Clark: I'll answer some of the questions since I was chef de mission for the project.

First I'd like to apologize, Madame Tremblay, for the fact that there was not a translation. I'm afraid our document was prepared at the last minute. We should have had it to the clerk on time.

To quickly address your issues, over the seven years that I've been in the job, in order to rationalize and to keep our costs down, on all major events we have operated as one unit. In other words, there is one business manager who books airlines, hotels, automobiles and so forth. There is one technical manager. We have operated as a steering committee, with representation from French and English radio and television. I can tell you that at the world broadcasters meetings Georges Selzter, Daniel's assistant, was present at every meeting and was part of every decision that was taken.

• 1720

I don't know where the information on parking came from. We get x number of spots for parking in one lot right outside the IBC. It was first come first served, and SRC vehicles were parked beside CBC vehicles. It wasn't that we had a parking lot close by and they had one elsewhere.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I told you where it came from. Journalists told us at Madam Copps' meeting with the press. This is one of the important points that was raised.

[English]

The Chairman: I would like to make an intervention here if I may, Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Mme Suzanne Tremblay: No, he's saying that he doesn't know where the information came from. I am answering that I told him. Perhaps he didn't understand.

[English]

The Chairman: I would like to make a suggestion here, and I hope this will satisfy you with your question.

I mentioned before other members came that because of our delay in the House a couple of our witnesses have other commitments and events that they have to go to. Would it be possible and would it be satisfactory, Madame Tremblay, if Mr. Clark took a look at and did an analysis of what that was and you could maybe write a note on that issue? Otherwise we could be pulling back and forth here on whether it is parking lot number 6 or 2 or 5 and we're going to miss opportunities for other members to put some of their questions on the record. Would that be satisfactory?

Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: If that is your decision.

[English]

The Chairman: No. I'm asking you.

[Translation]

No, I haven't decided that. It's a question.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: That doesn't bother me.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Clark, maybe you could give a short answer just so we could meet your time lines.

Mr. Alan Clark: Finally, on the issue of interviews, we had a former representative of the COA, who was in charge of gathering the interviews for English television, in cooperation with our French service, so I don't think there was ever an occasion where there would be 12 requests from CBC. The athlete would come into the broadcast centre and would be made available to whoever could take them first, French or English, or the television unit. In terms of the people there, there were 300 people; 139 were exclusive to English television and 110 were exclusive to French television. Over 40 were pooled and worked for both in engineering and research and as drivers, etc. There were radio and news personnel on top of that.

I know what you're referring to, when I said I don't know where the information came from. There was a brief interview, and Daniel might like to speak to that, because in fact it didn't come out of the news conference.

[Translation]

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Ms. Tremblay, I too was at Nagano. A lot of things were said during that press conference, and I would like to make a brief comment.

I saw the people who complained in the same locations where we were, beside us, working on the same coverage. Something happened, something went wrong. Personally, I think that the journalists complained for nothing.

I would like to say with respect to the points that you raised, that I will with Allan and we will analyze the whole operation. Obviously some things may have gone wrong. Covering the Olympics is a huge undertaking. We have already started to discuss it. We want to organize meetings. It is mentioned in our documents that we will try to develop a much more effective synergy between CBC Sports and Radio-Canada Sports.

As for the questions concerning radio, unfortunately, I cannot answer them. I am not the head of the radio operations.

[English]

The Chairman: We are going to go to Mr. Coderre now and then to Mr. Solomon. Could we have short preambles and tighten up the questions so that we meet everybody's time lines?

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): I will try, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. First of all, like my colleague, I will accept your apologies because I agree with her on the official languages issue. I am somewhat uneasy, because it just so happens that I am the vice-chairman of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I will restrain myself in view of the time, and talk to you about sports. I think that you have duly noted the requirements with respect to bilingualism.

• 1725

What fascinates me is that I hear CBC and Radio-Canada talking about culture, and NetStar is talking about business. Yes, sport is an industry, and I think it should be treated as such. I am familiar with RDS because I have participated in events such as the last Gala Sports Quebec. They did a fabulous job. I know Chantal Machabbée well. We went to school together. I can see that you have really focused on the sports issue.

What bothers me, Mr. Chairman, is that if we want to show any respect whatsoever for the Francophones outside of Quebec, we would have to find a way to do so. In the area of professionalism, things are great. The difference between Radio-Canada and RDS is that Radio-Canada is a national broadcaster for Francophones. RDS does not broadcast across Canada, TSN, obviously, does, but not RDS.

I don't know whether we would have to go through the CRTC to see whether RDS could become a national broadcaster. In any case, I know that there is a place for sports 24 hours per day. If we want to combine culture and industry, we will have to look seriously at the issue of broadcasting.

Since we have signed a 10-year agreement for olympic coverage, I would like to be able to discuss partnership. We pay taxes too. When the broadcasting rights were negotiated, there were battles between the TVA network and Radio-Canada. Radio-Canada finally won.

If we want to discuss this in terms of culture, I think it would be important that you put a little money into Les Héros du samedi and L'Univers des sports. If we do indeed eventually want to make a link between amateur sports and professional sports, it would be important, Mr. Asselin, to give very serious thought to this matter.

Now, if we want to talk about culture, I would say that as a football fan, I'm quite willing to see the Grey Cup on RDS. However, since I'm also a francophone, and this is a national event, I would very much like to follow the game in French, even if I can understand it in English.

But I am wondering, finally, is whether we really need sports on Radio-Canada, if we can solve the broadcasting problem. Strictly from a business point of view, if TSN and RDS provide a greater choice and if Radio-Canada's coverage of the Olympics led to certain problems and is more expensive for taxpayers than if it were carried by a private network, I would like somebody to tell me what the advantages are of continuing with Radio-Canada.

How do you see this? Would it not have been better to let the private market go, while ensuring through the CRTC that there be a national network through which francophones and anglophones could have access on the same basis.

A last point, and this will be my last question. Mr. Chairman, I am very worried about professional franchises, whether it be the Edmonton Oilers or the Montreal Expos which are my big hang-up. If there were to be a partnership between broadcasters and the franchise owners, would it be possible to find the financing for a stadium in downtown Montreal? Since both RDS and TSN, Radio-Canada and the CBC broadcast, although I think that the CBC does not carry the Expos, would there be a way of financing a stadium in downtown Montreal? It would obviously require some type of partnership. Should there be a tax? And shouldn't it be the broadcasters, not the citizens who pay the tax? Shouldn't we say that for each dollar that they get in advertizing revenue, a certain portion would go for the construction of a stadium to help the professional teams? I'm throwing this out for discussion.

The questions are for both groups RDS and TSN from NetStar as well as Radio-Canada and the CBC.

Thank you for your apologies concerning bilingualism. I, too, accept them.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: You have raised a number of questions, Mr. Coderre. I will try to answer them.

• 1730

It is obvious that the cancellation of L'Univers des sports and Les Héros du samedi were caused by budget cuts. Since we now have the Olympics for the next ten years, we will be broadcasting a weekly program. It may not be L'Univers des sports or Les Héros du samedi but it will be a weekly program.

It is quite obvious, and I agree with you on this point, that we cannot limit ourselves to the next five Olympics. As I mentioned in my text, slowly but surely we will have to get people to realize that we will follow a player who is 14 years old today and hope that we will be a sports hero when he is 24.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Will that be in your next programming schedule, what you're telling me now?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: We are presently working on it.

Mr. Denis Coderre: That's fine.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: So, there is a room for it.

Let's talk about the Grey Cup. Radio-Canada is still a general broadcaster that carried the Grey Cup for years. I'm a football fan too. I have played it and I have been an empire. I adore football.

However, ending the Grey Cup coverage is a business decision. Montreal has lost its team. Television spectators identify with their local team. That was clear when the Nordiques disappeared; something was lost.

When the Alouettes and the Concordes left Montreal, football in the province of Quebec, not in Canada but in Quebec, lost its team. By the same token, it lost the Grey Cup, because people lost interest in it.

M. Denis Coderre: They came back.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: They came back, but we no longer own the rights. They slipped through our fingers. However, I'm going to look after that if Jacques will allow it.

Some members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Denis Coderre: Don't get into a fight.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: No, no.

Why does the corporation want to broadcast the Olympics? I think that we have explained this at length. We are cross-Canada television, a general broadcaster.

I would not like to offend my colleagues at RDS, with whom we have a partnership for automobile sports, the Pan-American Games and the Olympic Games; however, unfortunately, RDS is only available on cable and does not reach the entire country. I think it is the responsibility of the corporation— and I say this with due respect for my colleagues at RDS who carry excellent sports programs —to be there at the Olympics so that Canadians, from coast to coast can get free on-the-air coverage.

As for the Expos, I don't want them to leave, I worked for TQS before I joined the corporation, and I was there when the Nordiques left Quebec. I saw the financial and sports implications of losing a professional franchise. I would not like to see the Expos go. Through our partnership arrangement with the Expos, we became partners. It is obvious that we will do everything we can to save the team.

Mr. Denis Coderre: What can you do?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: The first game is next week. I think that just by broadcasting it— If there is no talk about the Expos, people won't be interested. We have a good broadcasting schedule with the Expos. Just being partners and talking about the team is important.

What else can we do? I don't think that it is the corporation's role to finance a stadium in downtown Montreal.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Yes, but when we talk about a partnership, we can talk about financial partners and participation. We can talk about an association with the team. Is that conceivable?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: We are already associated. The way we share the rights has created a partnership that links us. We produce their games; we work out the schedule together: we agree on the commercials, we are truly partners. In my opinion, if the Expos go, it will create a loss. There will be a loss for the SRC.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Fine. What do you have to say about NetStar?

Mr. Jacques Boucher: Specifically on the question of the Expos, I would like to say that we are, and since the beginning have been the most important broadcaster of the Expos, we have a grid of 40 games throughout the season.

Traditionally, throughout the years, our network has always given the most extensive coverage to the Expos' training camp. This year again, it was the same.

• 1735

Also, we undertook a number of promotional activities with the Expos. You may recall the Soyons Expositifs campaign of a few years back. We devised this campaign with it and launched it to promote the team in the region and to help it improve its image.

We are currently planning other forms of promotion with them. We are working very closely together. It is a true partnership, and it is on-going. I agree with my colleague from Radio-Canada that for a sports network, the loss of the Expos, a major sports franchise, would be a disaster. There is no doubt about it. We will do everything possible to help the Expos in their quest for a new stadium. That's a sure thing.

[English]

Mr. Jim Thompson: Mr. Coderre, if I may, the RDS signal is certainly available across Canada. It's on a national satellite. It is the cable operators' choice, lack of choice or absence of choice, to accept it. The signal is there, and we would be delighted if we could have seven million or eight million francophone households receiving RDS. Having said that, it is available, but in very small numbers, on the direct-to-home or the direct broadcast satellites now.

[Translation]

M. Denis Coderre: Have you applied to the CRTC to get global broadcasting in the same way as Radio-Canada, for instance?

[English]

The Chairman: Excuse me, Denis, but your time has elapsed. We now have to move to Mr. Solomon, because he has another commitment as well.

Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have to catch a plane, Denis.

First of all, I want to thank you very much for your very informative presentation. I'm from Saskatchewan— Regina, to be specific —and I would be remiss if I didn't ask any questions about the Roughriders, but I'll get to them in a minute.

I just want to pay a few compliments to both of you, because I watch the English version of TSN and CBC, and some of the Expos games on the French-language stations. My view and the view of Saskatchewanians is that the coverage of the Olympics was just excellent on the part of the television network and those who were involved. Also, the coverage that TSN provided for women's curling was excellent. The gold medallist team in curling at the Olympics was from my constituency— at least, one of the players is —and we're very proud of them.

Also, I believe there is one criticism about the coverage of the CFL that I wanted to ask you about. The Roughriders are a very popular team in Saskatchewan and also in the west, because most of the people who have left our province to move to other parts of the country are still very supportive of the Roughriders. My sense, gentlemen, is that the support for the CFL is declining, though, and I'm wondering if that's because the number of games that are covered has also been on the decline. Maybe it's just me, but my sense is that there seems to be less CFL coverage on television. I'd like you to respond to that, number one.

Secondly, if my may, if you know the information, could you tell me whether the Saskatchewan Roughriders are one of the more popular teams in terms of viewers? I would appreciate knowing that.

Thirdly, how did we do at the Olympics with respect to revenues? Did we have more revenues CBC-wise from the Nagano Olympics than we had expenditures? I wouldn't mind knowing that for the record.

Thank you.

Mr. Alan Clark: I should really have Mr. Thompson answer most of the CFL questions. His company has just purchased the rights for the next five years, and I'm currently in negotiation with Mr. Thompson for rights.

But, yes, we did reduce our coverage. We originally did 24 to 26 games per season. In our last contract, which has just expired, we found that there are two seasons to football, one summer and one fall. We had great difficulty selling the summer. We were losing money on football, and part of our way of also meeting our budget cut was to reduce the summer season. At the same time, TSN had a request to carry more games, so they picked up that slack.

• 1740

The third part of this was that some of the teams— and Saskatchewan's was the leader in this —felt that if they could get their away games on a pay service— They tried it twice, and it failed miserably. We gave the teams this option, which had never existed before. Between the two of us we had exclusive rights. So they tried it, and not enough people subscribed to make it pay for itself. But there was more football last year, thanks to TSN, on Canadian television than ever before.

In terms of Saskatchewan as a draw, it's often a question of how the team is doing. As I said earlier, our business is about winners.

In terms of the Olympics, I'm happy to report that yes, we covered all our costs and turned a small profit. It was all done on incremental money. It was all paid for over and above. It was not part of the base budget provided to CBC Sports.

Mr. John Solomon: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Alan Clark: And thank you for your kind comments on the coverage.

Mr. Jim Thompson: Mr. Solomon, I won't take much time. Alan has answered all the questions very, very well.

However, we have just completed a new five-year arrangement with the CFL. We're bullish on the CFL. It is Canadian sport, and we have committed to a minimum of 50 games, so we are absolutely committed to maintaining the level.

I just might add that probably the biggest impediment to that is the league and the teams themselves. Their economies are fragile, there's no question, and they are very much driven by gate revenue. It has been an ongoing and will be a constant concern of ours that more television be permitted of the CFL. They can only do that if the teams are healthier and more people are in the parks. But I can assure you that TSN and RDS and the CBC are committed to maintaining and growing the CFL, and I think the five-year contract is living proof of that.

Mr. John Solomon: Thank you very much.

One more question, Mr. Chair and members, if I may.

The Chairman: A short question, Mr. Solomon, before you go and catch your plane.

Mr. John Solomon: Thank you.

Regarding some of the rumours about various professional teams in Canada, we've lost the Winnipeg Jets, which was one of my favourite teams, at least when they were in the WHL but NHL as well, and there's some talk about the Edmonton Oilers and perhaps the Expos moving south. Would this impact upon the profitability of both corporations if they left, that is, if there were fewer Canadian professional teams to view?

Secondly, to follow up on Monsieur Coderre's question, there was some information research done, not in Canada but in the States, pertaining to communities that have professional sports franchises. The research showed that perhaps one of the solutions would be for the television companies to levy a particular head tax, in particular through cable, for example, where a portion of the revenues you might receive from covering that particular sports game would go back into the communities to help fund the franchise.

As I said, it's American research, not Canadian research. I'm not sure exactly what conclusions they drew. Do you think that would be at all feasible to provide, especially on the cable networks or satellite networks where it would not be pay-per-view, but would provide a certain amount of money for covering for example the Edmonton Oilers or the Vancouver Canucks?

Mr. Jim Thompson: Mr. Solomon, perhaps I'll take the question. And, Alan, I'm sure you would like to jump in.

If the Edmonton Oilers do experience difficulties and leave Edmonton, yes, it will have a negative economic impact on all broadcasters associated with them. It would have an economic impact on the city and so many other peripheral industries that are aligned.

Regarding a head tax, it's a word we try not to use.

The Chairman: Not if you're from downtown Toronto.

Mr. Jim Thompson: As a member of Mr. Mills' riding.

Yes, we do contribute directly, in the form of rights. The rights, for instance, to the Canadian Football League that we have just undertaken for the next five years are certainly considerably in excess of what has been paid over the last, I would say, 10 to 15 years.

• 1745

To obtain the property in the competitive marketplace you pay rights, and those rights are being driven sky-high by competition right now. In one respect the teams and the leagues will benefit from that. More money is being paid directly to them to fund their operations.

Mr. Alan Clark: There's no question the lack or decline of Canadian teams would have a serious impact. Part of the decline of the ratings we've seen in Hockey Night in Canada is directly attributable to the loss of the Nordiques and the Winnipeg Jets. The highest audience we've had for Hockey Night in Canada this year was when we had all six Canadian teams playing three weeks ago. We have it in our contract with the NHL that once we drop below a certain threshold of teams we renegotiate our contract. If the status of Canadian teams—

As to the impact, I spend almost a week in Winnipeg every month. I don't think they ever got over the loss of the Jets. They have not got over the impact. In many ways it's a demoralized place. It's funny to put your finger on it. I know the mayor was talking with the mayor of Edmonton, saying, hang on to your team; you have no idea the impact it has at the end of the day, beyond just straight dollars and cents.

[Translation]

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Since we're talking about the Expos, I would like to go back a bit in time. The loss of a professional sports team, of whatever kind, is a loss for everyone, and not only for broadcasters. This was the case with the loss of the Nordiques and this is the case with the Jets.

I have a little example relative to the loss of the Nordiques which shows the grassroots impact this can have. There used to be a parking lot near the Colisée in Quebec which could hold around 40 cars during local games. The parking lot was the property of the manager of Roc-Amadour, and he would finance some of his activities with the money earned during the hockey games. Since then, he has been having a hard time. Forty cars at $5 each would amount to $200 per game, and there used to be 40 local games. Everyone is affected by this.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The issue of amateur sports is fairly close to my heart. Twenty years ago I was involved with the Canadian alpine ski team, doing public relations. I went on to do a short contract with CBC TV sports. It has been a long time since I've given much thought to these issues, but—

The way I look at the coverage of amateur sports, I see it as very important to our Olympic program to ensure young people have exposure to sports other than the traditional hockey, football, and baseball. I'm wondering if you could tell me for each of your operations what the general trend lines have been over the last ten years. I know when I was involved in a local TV sports program. It was cut and a lot of the local amateur sports coverage suffered as a result of that. Perhaps you could shed a little light on where the trend lines have been and where you see them going in the future, because as I said, I think it's very important for our Olympic effort.

Mr. Alan Clark: For our part, what we have seen is that as funding for amateur sports has been reduced they have looked to two sources. One was sponsorship and the second was television.

We pay virtually no rights fees any longer for amateur sport. There was a time when we did. What we give them now is television. In return they give us the rights.

Where we've run into problems— I should maybe have Nancy speak to this —is that we've actually had associations go out and promise television coverage to sponsors and then come to us. I know some complaints have been made against the CBC on this, where they made promises without having a contract with us.

• 1750

Here's the other part of it. Skiing is a good example. There was a time, four years ago, when we were spending about $1.3 million a year on skiing. It was the single biggest chunk of money by far. At the end of the day, it was for very little return, because as our teams did not do well, with one or two exceptions on the female side, the audience decline was dramatic. So we simply weren't going to put 25% of our amateur budget into one sport that very few people were watching. We were able to do a deal with TSN and FIS to make sure that skiing stayed on the air at least in some form.

But I mentioned that we started talking with Dan Smith at Sport Canada. We're trying to find creative options.

One idea we threw out to him was “buy one, get one free”. The idea there was that if we financed one swim meet, could Swimming Canada finance a swim meet? Therefore, we would get two, whereas right now we can only afford one.

So we're looking at creative options. Gone are the days when you could go a sponsor and say you needed $700,000 to support the ski team, a cheque was written and you left town.

One of our major sponsors said to us the other day that they used to spend money a mile wide and an inch deep. Now they're going to spend their money an inch wide and a mile deep. It means that a lot of sports are going to fall off. Just as Sport Canada has had to drop some funding, the sponsors are also dropping out of certain sports. As you've seen from the Olympics, every time there's a major games, some sport takes off, but other sports go into decline and really struggle.

I don't have an answer, but we're seeking ways to get more on the air.

Mr. David Pratt: So generally speaking, you see a decline, then, in the amount of coverage to amateur sports?

Mr. Alan Clark: We've been able to hold the line with keeping between 150 to 200 hours on the air by being creative. Some of the associations brought some sponsor money or sponsors to the table.

But it is a struggle. I'll give you an example with boxing. There are two people on Naismith Drive. We had offered the use of our building, the broadcast centre, as a venue for boxing. We put the ring in one of our studios. We had seating. But the problem was that the only association that put their hand up to say we'll put it on was in a small town.

I can't remember it. I know Summerside had boxing on one occasion.

It cost us a fortune to go where we had no base of people. We're travelling everybody. So you run into these confrontations.

Mr. Jim Thompson: Mr. Pratt, I'm a little more optimistic than my colleague here. Once upon a time, it was CBC's almost exclusive domain to support amateur sport through television. Since the advent of TSN in 1984, and subsequently RDS in 1989, the 200 hours that CBC now carries of amateur sport is augmented by 1,400 hours that each of the English and French networks from NetStar carry. To wit, there are the FIS races, the world cup races. As a world cup committee member, I'm delighted that you were involved.

Look what happened to curling in amateur sport. There's unprecedented coverage now. Look what has happened to international hockey, world junior hockey, the international world championships, and women's hockey. This is all amateur sport that was not covered with great amounts of time in previous years. There are the CIAU championships. Last week, Bishop's basketball team won in the last second of play. It was a terrific victory. But that's still amateur sport.

No, I'm very bullish on it. I think that if you sit back and look at where amateur sport is now, there's far more coverage than ever before. That's simply because there are more television opportunities on both the over-the-air, conventional networks and the cable networks that can be combined and shared.

I think there's a great deal of amateur sport covered, but Alan's point is very, very real. The cost is rising, and we need to be very creative and find sources of funding for that, whether it's advertisers, cable subscriber fees or whatever. We have to find it and we have to be far more effective in the way we present. But I believe it is very strong.

• 1755

The Chairman: Could I just build on the point you've developed there?

How is it, Mr. Thompson, that your organization seems to have so much more amateur broadcasting, and therefore you must have more corporate sponsors, while the CBC doesn't seem to attract that level of corporate sponsorship for amateur sport? What is the difference? What are you doing that CBC isn't doing to attract that much corporate sponsorship for amateur sport? Is there something you can share with us that is unique?

Mr. Jim Thompson: It is a matter of air time. We program 24 hours a day of sport. Mr. Clark and the CBC, and subsequently SRC, have limited time. Maybe 900 hours isn't limited time, but when you think we have 4,300 hours of original programming per year, the basic fact is we need to find the programming. The partnerships I talked about earlier are growing. People are becoming more trusting, both in us and us in the sports federations, and the third partner— the sponsors —is coming into the group. I think we are growing it.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Madame Tremblay, and then we will go to Mr. Bélair.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There is one thing I would like to understand. Why don't Canadian francophones— and I mean everyone— have the right to their own double hockey night? Why is this solely reserved for Canada's anglophone community?

In my second question, I would like to understand why the Expos were turned into a club for francophones and for Quebec, and the Blue Jays into a club for all Canadians except Quebeckers. Thirdly, because I'm very interested in this, I'd like to know where I could watch the world games.

Thank you.

Mr. Jacques Boucher: All the games?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: For the double hockey nights, this is a simple programming problem. The French language Radio-Canada network is seeking to be a general TV network.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: And the English network is not?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Ms. Tremblay, if we compare the role of sports on television— and I'll let Allan answer this, because I do not want to meddle in his affairs —with the role of drama and variety shows in Quebec, we can see that the latter have much higher ratings.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I'm talking about Saturday night, because it's on Saturday night.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Yes, yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: They're always broadcasting old movies that we've already seen a dozen times. These reruns are so boring that we finally turn on the CBC to watch a hockey game. I'm telling you, this is not—

[Note from the editor: Inaudible] —at all. There are old movies. You certainly don't watch Radio-Canada on Saturday nights.

Frankly, I don't think that this would be expensive. It would be sufficient to send someone who speaks French to comment the match in French. You'd take the same camera shots.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: I think this is a matter of taste and of choice. There are 6 million TV viewers in Quebec and there are—

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Not at all. We must think in terms of Canadian francophones, and this includes more people than that across this land. These francophones could tune into your network rather than watch boring movies. They can never watch their Canucks in French; they always have to listen to them in English. I don't know, but it seems to me—

Mr. Daniel Asselin: We've already had this debate. In similar situations, I've already heard people say that there were too many sports on Radio-Canada.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Oh yes. I've seen that myself. The private television networks came before us and said that.

Some honourable members: Ha, ha!

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What is your answer to my other question about the Expos and the Blue Jays?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Radio-Canada has been connected to the Expos for 30 years and has broadcast their games ever since they began. So, this is a historical situation. It's similar to the Montreal Canadians: why should we have the Canadiens in Montreal and the Maple Leafs in Toronto?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, but why don't the Expos ever get a chance to be seen on another channel other than the francophone network? Why don't they broadcast their games on the English network coast to coast?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: I feel that—

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: At any rate, everyone says that the Blue Jays are for the anglophones and that the Expos are for the francophones. Why can't we see everyone on the French and English networks.

• 1800

Mr. Daniel Asselin: How many Blue Jays games have been broadcast by RDS, Jacques?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No, I know that RDS has been broadcasting these games for quite some time. I'm talking about Radio-Canada, which is a national organization funded with everyone's tax dollars. Why can't francophones watch the Blue Jays in French and why can't we watch the Expos in English?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: We have been associated with the Expos for 30 years.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I have no problem with that. However, why can't the CBC do something?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: It's because people identify with their team. In Quebec, or in the rest of the country, people don't necessarily identify with the Blue Jays. We have to think about the ratings when we broadcast programs. The ratings is what bring in sponsors, the sponsors provide us with funding and money enables us to record events. If I were to suggest that we broadcast a game between the Blue Jays and the Cleveland Indians and only 32,000 viewers tune in, perhaps no one will want to sponsor the game and I'll lose money.

[English]

The Chairman: Madame Tremblay has an interesting point, because there was a time when the Toronto Maple Leafs had fans right across the country, as did Montreal, so why couldn't the same principle apply for the Expos? I think it's a pretty interesting point.

Mr. Bélair.

[Translation]

Mr. Réginald Bélair (Timmins—James Bay, Lib.): It's unfortunate when you're the last person to ask questions because everyone starts to get tired. We talked briefly about budget cutbacks and, Mr. Asselin and Mr. Clark, you referred to the matter in your brief. You said that some programs have been dropped. Briefly, could you tell me whether or not these programs were dropped as a direct result of the government of Canada's budget cutbacks at the CBC and at Radio-Canada?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: I don't want to avoid the question, but perhaps I could refer the matter to Daniel, who was there at the time of the cutbacks.

[English]

Mr. Alan Clark: On the English side, Mr. Bélair, English Television Network Sports over the last five years has seen its budget reduced by approximately $5 million, or over 10%.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: So it begs the second question, that you obviously have not generated enough publicity revenues to cover those cuts.

Mr. Alan Clark: Not completely, but I don't want to whine about it because we've been aggressive in going out to try to raise money and do smarter sponsorship deals and so forth. We've been able to keep the level of sport almost where it was. It's just expensive things like skiing we had to get out of. We got out of several rodeos in the west because they always were held on weekends and the cost was extraordinary. But we've been able to back-fill it with some cheaper programming and some smarter thinking in business practices.

[Translation]

Mr. Réginald Bélair: Mr. Asselin talked about cutbacks totalling $5 million.

M. Daniel Asselin: In the CBC sports services.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: And at Radio-Canada?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Two million dollars.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: And there was never enough advertizing revenue to offset the loss?

Mr. Daniel Asselin: No. I was told that the budget cutbacks were part of the general effort that had to be made by Radio-Canada television. Everyone did his bit: drama programs, varieties, youth programs, news and sports as well.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: You referred to a type of exchange between Radio-Canada, CBC and the TSN and RDS networks. As a member of Parliament, I have received some complaints stating that you are penalizing people in the rural regions that don't have access to cable. Are you going to resort to this practice more often or will you only use it on an occasional basis?

• 1805

Mr. Daniel Asselin: With the Formula 1 exchange, everyone was a winner, both RDS and Radio-Canada. Regardless of where they lived, television viewers missed nothing. Obviously, some compromises had to be made.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: Even if they didn't have cable.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: No, because when we broadcast Formula 1 races live, RDS broadcasts them as a replay. When RDS broadcast them live, we broadcast them as a replay.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: Okay.

Mr. Daniel Asselin: Consequently, no one is missing anything whatsoever. We are currently working on what we will do for the Pan-american Games or the Olympic Games. Television viewers never miss anything whatsoever when there is an exchange between RDS and us.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: That comforts me.

I have one final comment, Mr. Chairman. Since Mr. Clark is here, I can't refrain from talking about Don Cherry.

[English]

Mr. Clark, some time ago Dave Hodge was fired because he made a public comment on management. Yet Don Cherry— and I'm not only referring to the situation that arose because of Mrs. Tremblay's comments, I'm going years and years back —this gentleman on CBC Coach's Corner always taints his words with racism, and that's a known factor. He never hid himself from the fact that he is an ultra-nationalist, with everything that it means.

What I am saying now— and I am pleased that for once I have a forum where I can vent —is that it's not a frustration, it's an outright insult to me to listen to this gentleman paid by my own taxes. I have to tell you that as soon as I see his face on television I switch the channel, to the point where once I was in the Maple Leaf Lounge at the Ottawa Airport and he was there and I almost told him off right there in front of everybody.

I do not accept, and I never will, that anyone paid by our taxes has some racist comments about anybody on national television. Why is he still there? Maybe you can't answer the question. Don't give me the line that he's entitled to his own opinions, because any one of us who would appear on an interview and say words that Don Cherry allows himself to say would probably be sued and in the next goddamn election we would be gone. And yet Don Cherry still sits there as an icon.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Would you like to respond?

Mr. Alan Clark: I'll try. Actually, I'm sorry that at the airport you didn't go up to him. There's an old song expression, to know him is to love him. Our politics, that is, my politics and Don's, couldn't be farther apart, but I have come to know him and I would look you in the eye and say that the man is not a bigot. No, he's not.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: He talks about the Swedes, the Russians, natives and French Canadians the way he does at times and the guy is not a bigot. He says himself that he is an ultra-nationalist. Yes, that's dangerous. It should not be permitted in our society. I'm sorry. I will never agree with it, never.

If Dave Hodge was fired for being critical of management, this is much more serious than what Dave Hodge said of you, because I don't know if you were his boss then.

Mr. Alan Clark: No. There is no middle ground, Mr. Bélair and Mr. Chairman, on Don Cherry. And certainly as people who are in the public every day, you know that certain people push very popular buttons or have a sense of what a large significant part of the population feel, and he certainly has that ability to read that feeling and push those buttons. But I come back to the point, and maybe I could send you the documentary that was done on him.

Mr. Réginald Bélair: No, thanks.

The Chairman: Maybe I could ask a question on this issue. I know Don Cherry and I've differed with him on many issues and I've agreed with him on a few issues, but we've all made dumb comments at times in the heat of the moment.

• 1810

In terms of numbers, Don Cherry is probably the most popular hockey person in Canada, but is there a system within your organization for when Mr. Cherry sort of goes over the edge? You know, we talk about the example to kids and everybody else. Would the organization challenge him to maybe soften it a bit or try to correct it because of the perceptions, feelings and attitudes that people might pick up from his approach?

We're not trying to be judgmental here so much as we're trying to say there is— For example, let me link it over to the radio system. One of the stations in Toronto has a disc jockey by the name of Howard Stern. Why the CRTC allows that man to go on is, in my mind, beyond imagination.

Is there a system within the CBC for challenging, in a constructive way, Mr. Cherry's approach on some of these issues?

Mr. Alan Clark: Yes, there is, Mr. Chairman. I guess it comes down to me, first of all, as the person in charge, and I'll give you an example. During a Coach's Corner during Desert Storm, he came in, put a Canadian flag up on the set, and attacked Mr. Solomon's party. He basically took up the whole piece talking about Desert Storm and the Canadian role. Certainly we had a long chat to remind him that his role was to comment on hockey and not on politics, unless it was part of sport. And we also have an ombudsman who, in the case of his comments in Nagano, is looking into them at this time.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Proud.

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, I certainly enjoyed your presentation here today. I just want to say to you that I'm not going to defend or degrade Don Cherry, because I don't listen to him very much. I have a friend who is a friend of his— and not a very good friend of his —Forbes Kennedy, who used to play with Toronto and Boston. When he gets together with Cherry the odd day in the summer down in Charlottetown, it's quite a show.

Mr. Jim Thompson: I'd like to see that.

Mr. George Proud: I did enjoy the coverage of the Olympics that I did get to see. I enjoy watching TSN. The only complaint I personally have is that I can't get the big fights because we don't have pay-per-view or anything like that in Charlottetown. I have to go to my neighbours' to watch the horse races from the Meadowlands and that kind of stuff from the dish. That'll come to us eventually some day, though.

Mr. Clark, I'm from Atlantic Canada, as I said, and this is a problem that we have, being an outback part of the world. We can't get a lot of the coverage. You'll be there this summer for the skins games, there's no doubt about that.

But there are things that I see when you say you can't get the television cameras in there. You have expert people with TV cameras in some of those areas, so I just wonder. We talked a lot about the Olympic Games and professional sport and all of these things tonight, but with you being the national broadcaster, I believe there are a lot of young people down there who deserve to get some coverage, be it in golf or hockey or baseball. I wonder what has to happen for that to happen. I know you said the rodeos are mostly held on the weekends. Well, most of this stuff is held on the weekends.

In Charlottetown, where I come from, CBC would be quite shocked to hear me talking positively about CBC coverage, because we don't always see eye to eye on certain issues. When you're a politician in a small town, you certainly can get offside with them.

Do you not have that expertise in those areas? Is there not a way the schedules can change so that they can work on weekends? That's the thing I hear the most complaints about, if I do hear a complaint about the sports coverage.

Mr. Alan Clark: I don't think it's as much an issue of what it costs us— although that clearly is an issue —as it is more that associations and organizations do not bring the events to that part of the world because of the cost to them of having to do it. So I'm saying more than anything, if the events are there, we're usually there, and if we're not, TSN is. It's that there isn't that number of events.

• 1815

We have talked with the Canadian Curling Association for a number of years about trying to get one of their major events, even if it was junior championships, into the Yukon, if that were possible, but so far the cost has just been outrageous. We would love to go there and do it, but at this stage it has been an issue of money. The fact that Corner Brook has the Canada Games is outstanding, but if you look at the number of events of a national stature that have been held in Newfoundland over the last decade, I think we could count them on two hands.

Mr. George Proud: And Prince Edward Island, even worse.

The Chairman: I think this has come up several times today, remote regions getting serviced properly or getting access for their events to the national stage. Is there some way you could put some thoughts together and over the next two or three months send something to us, some type of recommendations, building on the theme of a partnership between government, the private sector, and so on, as you had discussed earlier, that these partnerships are essential?

Mr. Jim Thompson: Mr. Chairman, I might just comment on that.

The events that we and CBC cover, and RDS and SRC, are principally, probably solely, national events. Regional events really do not have the scope or the interest outside of the area, and hence as national networks it makes it very difficult, literally impossible, for us to cover them.

We follow the staging of the events. In some instances, indeed, we have input as to where they may be held, but in most instances we are informed that a curling championship will be held in Kamloops or a skating championship will be held in Winnipeg.

The Chairman: I think of the example, Mr. Thompson, of the Spruce Meadows organization, which started as a very small event. But I think it was driven by its television exposure, and it has become a national event.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I'd like to make a comment about that. Curling, for instance, was not at all well-known in Quebec. It wasn't popular at all. Very few people curled. After seeing curling on television, people started saying: "It might be fun to try that." For 15 years we had a curling weekend at the university to give us a chance to get together. I curled once a year for 15 years just because it was a social activity at the university. But before seeing curling on television, we knew nothing about curling.

So, I'm saying that there's perhaps some regional thing and if— We talked about rodeos. We never see rodeos on television. It would perhaps be interesting to watch rodeos.

[English]

Mr. Jim Thompson: Madame Tremblay, if I may, I'm delighted to hear that curling is becoming popular in Quebec because of the coverage that RDS provides, but each of the championships and all of the curling that you see and witness are indeed national championships.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Fine, I understand.

[English]

The Chairman: Gentlemen, we have another vote.

We apologize again for delaying you for almost an hour. You've been very generous with your time here today, and on behalf of the committee, we thank you for coming.

If between now and the end of June there are any specific recommendations that you feel could be beneficial for us to consider as part of our final deliberation, we would appreciate hearing from you. Thank you very much.

Mr. Alan Clark: Thank you.

The Chairman: The meeting is adjourned.